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CX Upgrade Wheels???

AORboyoAORboyo Posts: 53
edited August 2014 in Cyclocross
Hi,



On the lookout at upgrading my budget CX Disc Wheels, these will NOT be used for CX racing, only for commuting / all year round training especially in wet winter months on UK roads / cycle paths.

My budget is up around the £500 mark, give or take......should I go with off the shelf factory wheels or opt for Handbuilt beauties???

Posts

  • antsmithmkantsmithmk Posts: 717
    I'm keen on an answer to this too.... But I want wheels that will handle racing
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    antsmithmk wrote:
    I'm keen on an answer to this too.... But I want wheels that will handle racing
    Tubeless or Tubs?

    I built up two sets of tubeless wheels last year with Iron Cross rims on Novatec hubs; weigh less than 1500g a pair and should come in well under the £500 budget even if you pay someone else to build them for you (I think mine worked out more like £300 a pair).

    Seem to be plenty of options for tub wheels at a similar weight/cost, but having not (yet) ridden them, I can't make any specific recommendations.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    Handbuilts... the market for factory disc wheels is depressing to say the least.
  • blu3catblu3cat Posts: 1,016
    Also wanted cx wheels, and quickly hence I went factory (ducks :wink:), (the pair that shipped with my bike were very heavy, to the point of it feeling like a tank).

    Went for a pair of Kinesis Crosslight CX6 £260, came in at just under 1600g (claimed weight 1555g) with tape.

    So far, so good. Although they have only seen a couple of hundred miles of tarmac so far, they have transformed the bike (over 750g lighter wheelset)
    "Bed is for sleepy people.
    Let's get a kebab and go to a disco."

    FCN = 3 - 5
    Colnago World Cup 2
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    Handbuilts... the market for factory disc wheels is depressing to say the least.

    Just had some CX handbuilts done...Shimano XT hubs (cup and cone), Archetype rims and 32 d/b spokes. Novatec also do some decent hubs, albeit using sealed cartridge bearings. Came in at a lot less than £500 :)
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    AORboyo wrote:
    Hi,



    On the lookout at upgrading my budget CX Disc Wheels, these will NOT be used for CX racing, only for commuting / all year round training especially in wet winter months on UK roads / cycle paths.

    My budget is up around the £500 mark, give or take......should I go with off the shelf factory wheels or opt for Handbuilt beauties???

    You should be able to get some 32h Archetypes on Sapim Race or similar spoke with the Novatecs 711/712 disc hub for a lot less than £300.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    gabriel959 wrote:
    You should be able to get some 32h Archetypes on Sapim Race or similar spoke with the Novatecs 711/712 disc hub for a lot less than £300.
    Is 290 pounds a lot less than 300? :shock:
  • KimbleKimble Posts: 53
    Novatec CXD are pretty good looking option with good reviews and def on my wishlist £349 and around 1420 / 1450g tub / clincher. I spoke to a couple of shops who stock them and one is on 3 week pre-order as they're flying out the door with a good few going for disc equipped road bike use. I need to find an Indo shop who'll take my rubbish C2W vouchers for 'em.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    I really rate the D711/D712 hubs for race wheels. Bearing seals aren't absolutely perfect, but the bearings are cheap as chips and easy to replace; my bike was getting pressure-washed multiple times per week with scant attention to the bearings, and in the whole season I think I had to replace the outer freehub bearing twice, and the outer non-drive side wheel bearing once. This was on the rear wheel with the mud tyre. The other rear wheel and both fronts still have the original bearings. In contrast, the BB and jockey wheel bearings had to have the seals removed and mud washed out after every ride.

    I keep a stock of spare bearings. Once you know how to take the wheel apart I reckon you could replace all four rear wheel bearings in about 10 minutes...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    TGOTB wrote:
    I really rate the D711/D712 hubs for race wheels. Bearing seals aren't absolutely perfect, but the bearings are cheap as chips and easy to replace; my bike was getting pressure-washed multiple times per week with scant attention to the bearings, and in the whole season I think I had to replace the outer freehub bearing twice, and the outer non-drive side wheel bearing once. This was on the rear wheel with the mud tyre. The other rear wheel and both fronts still have the original bearings. In contrast, the BB and jockey wheel bearings had to have the seals removed and mud washed out after every ride.

    I keep a stock of spare bearings. Once you know how to take the wheel apart I reckon you could replace all four rear wheel bearings in about 10 minutes...

    Yep, that's my experience too with those hubs
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    Another data point: I've just spent £310 on a pair of Novatec hubs and a pair of 50mm carbon tub rims from a reputable supplier in China. Even by the time I've paid import duty and bought the spokes, they'll still come out well under the £500 figure mentioned by the OP, and I'll have a pair of top notch race wheels.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    gabriel959 wrote:
    You should be able to get some 32h Archetypes on Sapim Race or similar spoke with the Novatecs 711/712 disc hub for a lot less than £300.
    Is 290 pounds a lot less than 300? :shock:

    Mine came at £280 but yeah I see what you are saying :mrgreen:
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • AORboyoAORboyo Posts: 53
    Hey Ugo,

    What hubs you recommend to go down the handbuilt option please......Archetype rims with Sapim spokes.

    Thanks for taking timeout chaps & giving your recommendations, very much appreciated.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    AORboyo wrote:
    Hey Ugo,

    What hubs you recommend to go down the handbuilt option please......Archetype rims with Sapim spokes.

    Thanks for taking timeout chaps & giving your recommendations, very much appreciated.

    A few options:

    1) Novatec 711/712
    2) Hope PRO 2 EVO
    3) Shimano XT 785
    4) Shimano CX 75

    Really down to budget, but I'd say those are all good.
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    I went with the Shimano XT 785, nice hubs but you have to use the splined Shimano rotors with them. And with BB-7 brakes the rotor arms interfere with the tabs on the brake pads, so the tabs have to be cut off. Not a major issue but in hindsight I would probably go for the Novatec 711/712. Bearings not as good (sealed cartridge) but the bearings are easily replaced.

    14176067444_64e3015b33_o.jpg
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • drummer_boydrummer_boy Posts: 236
    I don't know if you've made your mind up yet, but a friend of mine has just ordered an On One Dirty Disco and has had a quote for a set of tubeless racing wheels, as On One didn't do the types of wheels he was after.

    Anyway, the quote was from Strada handbuilt Wheels, and was for:
    Front Novatec Disc Front/Ryde Trace XC21 29er clincher/Sapim D-Light Spokes/Black, Red or Alloy finish nipples

    Rear Novatec Disc Rear/Ryde Trace XC21 29er clincher/Sapim D-Light Spokes/Black, Red or Alloy finish nipples

    Weight 1457.8g

    came in at £363 inc VAT and delivery built.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    I don't know if you've made your mind up yet, but a friend of mine has just ordered an On One Dirty Disco and has had a quote for a set of tubeless racing wheels, as On One didn't do the types of wheels he was after.

    Anyway, the quote was from Strada handbuilt Wheels, and was for:
    Front Novatec Disc Front/Ryde Trace XC21 29er clincher/Sapim D-Light Spokes/Black, Red or Alloy finish nipples

    Rear Novatec Disc Rear/Ryde Trace XC21 29er clincher/Sapim D-Light Spokes/Black, Red or Alloy finish nipples

    Weight 1457.8g

    came in at £363 inc VAT and delivery built.

    Those rims are super light and are meant to be ridden at < 3 Bar pressure (ca. 40 PSI), which is fine on the mud, less so if you want to ride on tarmac or gravel... which is what the OP wants
  • Dazza993Dazza993 Posts: 99
    Been catching up with the wheel related posts in this forum as I'm keen to replace the wheels on the 2013 Boardman CX Team that came fitted with Ritchey OCR disc wheels. They've been reliable enough apart from the weight, which I've read elsewhere to be knocking on 2kg for the set.

    Although a CX bike I've used it more as a winter training bike and it's never ventured off road. Currently fitted with 32mm Conti Sport Contact tyres. At worst I may need to refit the original 35mm knobblies and tackle a bridle path with my 11 year old daughter.

    There's not many disc specific CX wheels but via the wonders of the internet I've narrowed it down to
    1. Novatec CXD - £315 - 1485g and tubeless compatible
    2. Kenesis Crosslight CX disc v3 - £240 - claimed 1555g - though they seems to come heavier than this
    3. Stan's ZTR Alpha 340 - £400 - 1520g and tubeless compatible.

    The Novatecs seem like the out and out choice. Good reviews, the lightest of the above and within my price bracket (I don't want to go much over £400 and I'd expect something significantly better than the CXDs with an equivalent weight)

    Some may suggest that a 20/24 spoke count on the CXDs isn't going to make them bomb proof, but given their predominant use on tarmac and my 175 lbs (80kg) weight I'd assume they'll be fine.

    I know handbuilts get a lot of praise but Stradawheels are suggesting 1825g for a set of H Plus Son Archetypes on Novatec hubs that'll cost £364. Sure they're 32 hole rims and will take a lot more punishment but maybe overkill for my use.

    From what I've read the bearings are cheaply/easily replaces on the CXDs so I'm struggling to come up with a reason not to buy them.

    Before I commit to purchase, can anyone recommend other alternatives or offer some feedback as to why the CXDs are a no-no ?

    Thanks in advance
    ________________________________________
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool...
    Current : Cipollini Bond & Jamis Renegade Elite
    Previously : Lapierre Zesty 514 / Boardman CX Team / Cube Agree GTC Pro / Specialized FSR XC Pro '07
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    Anyone can build something along the line of the Novatec that will weigh the same at a similar price... so you should ask yourself... are Strada (or other builder) thick?
    They are light by cutting corners... 20 spokes with disc brakes? Alloy nipples for CX wheels? 24 Sapim Laser at the rear? I mean really?
    You can buy the Novatec, they will WOW you for a month or two and then they will start to fall apart if you use them, rather than look at them.

    The lightest disc set I have built came at just over 1600 grams without cutting corners (no alloy nipples, no low spoke count and no laser spokes) and it's roadworthy... I mean Paris-Roubaix kind of roadworthy...

    I think if you go lighter, you need to cut corners and ultimately they won't last.
    If you want to save weight, throw away the inner tubes and ride tubeless, that's 300 grams saved at no cost
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    I've built several sets around the 1400g mark using Novatec hubs:
    28/32 with Iron Cross rims, aluminium nipples, DT Competition spokes (1.8mm) on the high-tension side and DT Revolution (1.5mm) on the low-tension side
    24/28 with 80mm Farsports tub rims, same nipples/spokes as above
    32/32 with Mavic Reflex, same nipples/spokes (slightly heavier, I think)

    Only ridden on the first combo so far (2 sets) but they did a full season of racing/training without any issues or adjustment required. I checked the nipples a few weeks ago, and they all turn smoothly. I can understand that it might not make sense to build (and warranty) those wheels professionally, but for an amateur build where you're prepared to risk some additional maintenance in return for the weight reduction, I reckon it's worthwhile.

    I can't see an argument against the asymmetric spoke combination; in fact, it means the spokes experience very nearly the same stress on both sides of the wheel, unlike a normal build. As for the aluminium nipples, I'm prepared for the fact that they may one day seize, but (using copper grease for the initial build) so far there have been no issues. I do tend to be fastidious about cleaning them, but I think you have to do that anyway for CX race kit.

    For racing, where you're constantly accelerating and decelerating, I think the weight saving's worth having. Conversely, the wheels for my new commuter have the same spokes on both sides, and brass nipples.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,121
    TGOTB wrote:
    but for an amateur build where you're prepared to risk some additional maintenance in return for the weight reduction, I reckon it's worthwhile.
    absolutely...
    TGOTB wrote:
    I can't see an argument against the asymmetric spoke combination; in fact, it means the spokes experience very nearly the same stress on both sides of the wheel, unlike a normal build.

    That's not the case... the size of the spoke doesn't influence the tension... it's a common mistake that you read on the web... tension is load, the "rope" it's attached to is irrelevant

    Unless by stress you mean engineering stress.... but that is not linked to fatigue in the case of spokes :roll:
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    TGOTB wrote:
    but for an amateur build where you're prepared to risk some additional maintenance in return for the weight reduction, I reckon it's worthwhile.
    absolutely...
    TGOTB wrote:
    I can't see an argument against the asymmetric spoke combination; in fact, it means the spokes experience very nearly the same stress on both sides of the wheel, unlike a normal build.

    That's not the case... the size of the spoke doesn't influence the tension... it's a common mistake that you read on the web... tension is load, the "rope" it's attached to is irrelevant

    Unless by stress you mean engineering stress.... but that is not linked to fatigue in the case of spokes :roll:
    Nope, I meant engineering stress; I did the sums, and for the wheels I built the stress comes out very close on both sides. This means:
    1. You save a reasonable amount of weight, with no downside at all
    2. It's a little more elegant because it eliminates an element of overengineering
    3. It might mean that the wheel behaves more symmetrically under load (though I very much doubt this is of anything other than theoretical benefit)

    Fatigue is irrelevant because:
    1. I don't care about it; never had a spoke fail through fatigue on a well-built wheel.
    2. The ends of the spoke (which is where fatigue manifests itself) are the same diameter anyway...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
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