Harry Rowland's interview

ugo.santalucia

for those who have an interest

http://andywaterman.info/harry-rowland- ... ne-wheels/

ratsbeyfus

Thanks for that. He sounds like a man after your own heart Ugo - just replace 'Open Pro' with 'Archetype'. Plenty of common sense in there.

wishitwasallflat

Thanks Ugo v interesting

drlodge

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks for that. He sounds like a man after your own heart Ugo - just replace 'Open Pro' with 'Archetype'. Plenty of common sense in there.

Yep agree with that. My two pairs of wheels built by Harry have Open Pro and Excellight rims. The ones built buy Ugo have Archetype (and another pair of deep carbon tubs)!

I dread to think how many spokes all my bikes have combined, since they're mostly 32H wheels.

giant_man

thanks, interesting

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I dread to think how many spokes all my bikes have combined, since they're mostly 32H wheels.

You can buy 200 DT Comp for 98 pounds, the same as replacing the 10 spokes on the non drive side on a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLR

top_bhoy

I thought it was an interesting article until the last couple of sentences. If the journalist wasn't misinterpreting or condensing what was said, it doesn't sit well with me. It appears he labels certain groups of customers as good, bad or indifferent even before he speaks to them or sees the job. It would be easier for him to simply put in the shop window a notice saying 'No Dawes Galaxy Owners' wanted. It would certainly save him classifying people when they walk through the door and being critical of them later on. :twisted:

ugo.santalucia

Top_Bhoy wrote:

I thought it was an interesting article until the last couple of sentences. If the journalist wasn't misinterpreting or condensing what was said, it doesn't sit well with me. It appears he labels certain groups of customers as good, bad or indifferent even before he speaks to them or sees the job. It would be easier for him to simply put in the shop window a notice saying 'No Dawes Galaxy Owners' wanted. It would certainly save him classifying people when they walk through the door and being critical of them later on. :twisted:

You are making a lot of assumptions... starting by thinking his garage has a window... and when he says "I like them" maybe he refers to Royce hubs...

drlodge

You are both wrong, he doesn't have a shop or a garage, its a good size garden shed, but it does have a window ;-)

I think Harry shows normal human behaviour towards people who want a good product but aren't prepared to pay for it. He also has no time for people who want a wheel that isn't strong or reliable in his view hence he likes to stick with tried and tested combinations.

Anonymous

It was all a bit 'dull'. I guess there are perhaps limitations to what is feasible, but all he seems to want to do is build '1 set of 32h open pros' per customer and send them on their way.

Isn't it a bit more fun to try pushing the boundaries a bit more?

Can an artisan not build a superlight/stiff 16/20 combination? What if someone doesn't want to just train on a 32h wheelset all the time? I would love a few pairs of wheels, if for nothing else just to make life a bit more interesting.

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

Isn't it a bit more fun to try pushing the boundaries a bit more?

Yes and no. If you don't have the advertising budget of Mavic and Zipp, a single "bad" set of wheels can damage your reputation... you can do it if you sponsor some young racer or when you build for yourself or your mates or when people bring in their own rims and hubs to build.

coriordan wrote:

Can an artisan not build a superlight/stiff 16/20 combination?

No, we don't get access to proprietary huge aluminium or carbon spokes which build very light and very stiff wheels (see Mavic and Fulcrum) and that's probably a good thing for those out there on the road.

coriordan wrote:

I would love a few pairs of wheels, if for nothing else just to make life a bit more interesting.

Aren't you a bit young for a mid life crisis? :shock:

slowbike

When I talk to customers and find out what they’re doing, 95 per cent want the wheels for general club runs, sportives, maybe riding to work. Aerodynamics doesn’t come into it – it’s a waste of time. When they tell me what they want, it normally comes down that they need a basic set of wheels, and that’s that. It’s a nice rim to build with, an easy wheel to build, you won’t find a better rim than that and it’s a sensible price. Then you just put a hub in that matches the budget, you have to give customers some kind of choice, you can’t say I only like this hub and I only like this rim, as much as I’d like to!

So basically - you can have any wheel you like as long as it's this one ...

You’ve got to be realistic, save your high end wheels for best

So there are wheels that are better than these generic ones he builds ...

“Me? I’ve got PMP hubs on my summer wheels, Miche on my winter wheels with 36 spokes. I’ve got 28 spokes on my best bikes.”

ah - so the 32spoke wheel isn't the beall and endall then ...

I totally understand that for general riding a 32 spoke is absolutely fine - but then our sportives or club rides in the right weather is the time we want the best bike and the best wheels ... we don't all break spokes all the time and whilst a slash flat can cause the wheel to go out of true, most of us carry a spoke key or can limp back home/to the car/wherever anyway.

but I don’t like pushing boundaries any more.

He's only going to build wheels he knows will work for 95% of the population ... they'll be robust and give you many many miles of trouble free service ... very reliable and at a good price ...

... but ...

does it hit the brief? Do they excite you? Do they liven up your ride? If that's what you want then these are not the best wheels for you ...

that's my take on it anyway!

drlodge

Harry builds "boring" wheels, but much like banking, boring can be a good thing. They're low risk, suitable for 95% of people and will do the job well. I found Harry to be very good at informing me about the choices when I didn't understand much about the wheels, but now that I have a reasonable undestanding I don't need an "expert" to tell me which components I need - I pretty much know what I want and I then need a builder to build me the more exciting wheels that perhaps Harry won't build, or he doesn't/won't stock the components I want (archetype rims for example).

So to that extent, he's done too good a job at educating me! I've had 4 pairs of wheels built for me - the first two by Harry, and the second two by a more local builder than is well known around these parts, he stocks the parts I require (some I buy myself) and is willing to build the wheels more or less to my specification with some advice thrown in.

ugo.santalucia

Anonymous

Why does the middle bit always have a kink in it?

Would be good to have weights

wishitwasallflat

drlodge wrote:

Harry builds "boring" wheels, but much like banking, boring can be a good thing. They're low risk, suitable for 95% of people and will do the job well. I found Harry to be very good at informing me about the choices when I didn't understand much about the wheels, but now that I have a reasonable undestanding I don't need an "expert" to tell me which components I need - I pretty much know what I want and I then need a builder to build me the more exciting wheels that perhaps Harry won't build, or he doesn't/won't stock the components I want (archetype rims for example).

So to that extent, he's done too good a job at educating me! I've had 4 pairs of wheels built for me - the first two by Harry, and the second two by a more local builder than is well known around these parts, he stocks the parts I require (some I buy myself) and is willing to build the wheels more or less to my specification with some advice thrown in.

This is the essence of it - if you want what Harry builds then buy them from him and they will be great quality - if you want something different then buy elsewhere. When I first dealt with him I found it a bit strange and unusual and him stern. Now I know how he feels about it though and what he does I don't think there is any problem as he is completely upfront about what he does and it's up to the customer to take it or leave it. I think it's testimony to how good he is at what he does that he can be that limited and frank and still (presumably) make a living at this.

I just had a quick check and it isn't there but did it not used to say

The customer is always wrong

on his site?

wishitwasallflat

coriordan wrote:

Why does the middle bit always have a kink in it?

Would be good to have weights

Doesn't seem to one on the HB14 and A 23s - don't know why it's there on the others though?

Anonymous

Well it's curved which presumably has the same effect

drlodge

wishitwasallflat wrote:

I just had a quick check and it isn't there but did it not used to say

The customer is always wrong

on his site?

Its gone from the text, but its still in the title of the web page - look at the very top part of your browser.

wishitwasallflat

drlodge wrote:

wishitwasallflat wrote:

I just had a quick check and it isn't there but did it not used to say

The customer is always wrong

on his site?

Its gone from the text, but its still in the title of the web page - look at the very top part of your browser.

Cheers that re-assures me he still has the Chutzpah I admired so much

mechanism

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Presumably those are just a few examples of the rims he won't use.

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

Why does the middle bit always have a kink in it?

Would be good to have weights

It's the channel, makes it easier to run tubeless tyres as they can pop on the sides and seal... car rims have the same profile.
Weight is pretty much the same for all of them, unless you are one of those who looks at the + or - one ounce... I only do when I order a steak in a restaurant

cycleclinic

Nothing wrong with boring wheels sometimes as for some riders that suits very well. If your racing however a low spoke count does not hurt. Ugo is right about experimentation though no builder does it for customers. I sometimes experiment in a conservative way for myself but I still don't want a broken spoke, dropping the spoke count to 16/20 however is not an experiment I know what will happen with the rims and spokes available to me.

Which leaves in a quandry about the DA 7700 12H slotted hubs I have for a TT wheelset. Do I take the risk and re build every year or two or do I not bother. We know what Harry would do!

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Nothing wrong with boring wheels sometimes as for some riders that suits very well. If your racing however a low spoke count does not hurt. Ugo is right about experimentation though no builder does it for customers. I sometimes experiment in a conservative way for myself but I still don't want a broken spoke, dropping the spoke count to 16/20 however is not an experiment I know what will happen with the rims and spokes available to me.

Which leaves in a quandry about the DA 7700 12H slotted hubs I have for a TT wheelset. Do I take the risk and re build every year or two or do I not bother. We know what Harry would do!

The first Shamal had 12 spokes and were notoriously dreadful...they became better when they increase the spokes to 16. I think the biggest aero spoke you can get is DT New Aero, basically a squashed DT Champion... Madison don't have them, but somehow sdeals.com seem to have a good choice of sizes. I still think you will struggle with 12 spokes at the rear and would be tempted to drill the missing holes myself to make it into a 24. If you have a decent enough drill and a wire saw for slotting is not a difficult job to do

on-yer-bike

Ive just ridden 26 miles on my H+Son 32 spoke to test the back wheel Ive just re rimmed. I havent ridden them for a while and compared to the Campag factory wheels I've been using they felt horrible. I was much more aware of the road imperfections and they felt sluggish.
It could be the tyres though which are Conti 4 seasons 23mm, 100 psi. The Campag wheels have 23mm Pro 4s on them 105 psi. Or, it could have been me on a bad day.
The wheel stayed true though.

cycleclinic

I think I will give a 12 spoke rear ago it will only see club TT use and if a spoke breaks no matter I will just rebuild or maybe I will do that every year. It is an experiment it may turn out to be more reliable than any of us think or it could be worse. Harry wouldn't though to keep the thread on theme.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I think I will give a 12 spoke rear ago it will only see club TT use and if a spoke breaks no matter I will just rebuild or maybe I will do that every year. It is an experiment it may turn out to be more reliable than any of us think or it could be worse. Harry wouldn't though to keep the thread on theme.

It's not about reliability, it's about spoke pattern... you need 18 spokes for a 2 cross, maybe 16 pushing it... so you are left with a 1 cross pattern. You will have huge gaps between the spokes and I am not sure it's going to be easy to get a wheel true under those conditions. Even the deep carbon rims are not so stiff... maybe you should look into getting a pair of those Shamal rims... they used to weigh 800 grams or so and didn't really need truing

cycleclinic

I have rebuilt a shamal before and never again (I can buy the 12H shamal rims new) it was a pain. I have worked on Corima 12 spoke wheels as well and yes they are hard to true but it doable. 1x is what it will have to be. It's an experiment, I have already potentailly wasted money on the hubs so in for a penny in for a pound. The main problem with 1x is hub flange failure. Shamal wheels though where laced 1x on the rear and the spokes went before the hubs so that is some kind of reassurance.

ugo.santalucia

Isn't the angle very similar if not the same to a 2 cross on a 24 hub? The flange should be fine, I would think... you can use washers, if the hole is not too small, often Shimano holes are too narrow though...

SOme manufacturers tend to pair the holes in very low spoke counts to avoid the rim snaking between left and right