Will the Giro ever overtake/gain parity with the Tour?

phreak

Whilst I grew up watching the Tour, as I've learned more about the sport, and ridden in more places in Europe, the Giro just seems a better race in every possible way, except the quality of rider it can attract.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful routes available to the Giro don't have the very best flying up them. It got me thinking whether the Giro will ever catch up with the Tour in attracting the best riders in the world, and what might need to happen for them to do so.

salsiccia1

The quick answer is no. It will never have the profile of the Tour in fans' or sponsors' eyes, and in these days of riders racing very selected races and specific targeting, the Tour will always have priority.

However, I think the Giro is very much the better for not being equal to the Tour in scale and prominence, and long may it be so.

blazing_saddles

The correct answer is yes.
But it was 60 years ago.

thomthom

As long as Tour De France is in July and Giro isn't, then no. That's all that matters.

joelsim

No.

knedlicky

phreak wrote:

Whilst I grew up watching the Tour, as I've learned more about the sport, and ridden in more places in Europe, the Giro just seems a better race in every possible way … It seems such a shame that the wonderful routes available to the Giro don't have the very best flying up them./quote]

Salsiccia1 wrote:

The quick answer is no. It will never have the profile of the Tour in fans' or sponsors' eyes, and in these days of riders racing very selected races and specific targeting, the Tour will always have priority.
However, I think the Giro is very much the better for not being equal to the Tour in scale and prominence, and long may it be so.

Agree with the above statements.
If the Giro ever were to stand any chance of gaining parity with the Tour, without turning the clock back (so racing became basically just continental Europe again), I think it would need to be won by someone from an English-speaking land. I know it has been in the past, but Ireland and Canada don’t count, and the USA had little interest 25-30 years ago.

Actually the Giro doesn’t do so bad in attracting the top riders, people just have the notion it doesn't. Had Porte not dropped out, this year’s field would have included 4 of the top 10 of the 2013 World Tour ranking, or 7 of the top 20.
I would guess those figures are about the same every year.
The Tour typically has 5-6 of the top 10 and maybe 10 of the top 20, so not exceedingly higher figures.

johnnymcg259

Salsiccia1 wrote:

The quick answer is no. It will never have the profile of the Tour in fans' or sponsors' eyes, and in these days of riders racing very selected races and specific targeting, the Tour will always have priority.

However, I think the Giro is very much the better for not being equal to the Tour in scale and prominence, and long may it be so.

This +1. It's a beautiful race.

Macaloon

phreak wrote:

Whilst I grew up watching the Tour, as I've learned more about the sport, and ridden in more places in Europe, the Giro just seems a better race in every possible way, except the quality of rider it can attract.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful routes available to the Giro don't have the very best flying up them. It got me thinking whether the Giro will ever catch up with the Tour in attracting the best riders in the world, and what might need to happen for them to do so.

Serious sports organise themselves around showdowns between the highest ranked players. Sacred cows like Wimbledon's grass speed for Nadal, and domestic footy leagues etc, are regularly sacrificed to maintain the regular drama of best vs best.

The Giro might regularly attract 4 of the top ten every year, but so does the Europa league. Quintana is doing the equivalent of Arsenal targeting the Europa. Nibali 2014 is like Murray missing wimbledon to peak for the US Open.

GTs need to become easier - 2 week Giros and Vueltas - and the schedule may need a tweak to create a bigger gap between Giro and Tour. Difficult. Nigh on impossible. But imagine the impact on the sport's finances if interest in the Giro was even 25% of the Tour. Just for a laugh imagine Froome and Contador in the line-up.

When F1 can put hairdryers in their cars in the name of progress, cycling looks incredibly backward.

phreak

I suppose that's the thing though. The difficulty thing is only an issue because the best riders are picking and choosing their races, so therefore arrive fresher than someone that races all of the big ones. If there was such an environment whereby none of the big stage race riders missed a grand tour, then they'd all be in the same boat fatigue wise.

The Giro route is fantastic, but it's hard not to think it would be a better race with Froome, Nibali, Contador, Valverde et al riding it.

blazing_saddles

The very last thing I want to see (yes, this post is about me) is the Giro having to lose it's
identity, by chopping a third off it's length, on the off chance it can attract the TDF crowd.
To me, the Giro has always been about it's unique parcour, not it's field; the race, not the racers.
The Giro may not be as big as Le Tour, but it will always be bigger than the current crop of
cycling celebrity.
It's a more modest race than the Tour, so a more modest startlist will suffice.

For those interested, this is an interesting publication which has all the numbers that show the scale
of the event.
http://www.gazzetta.it/Giroditalia/2014 ... 14_WEB.pdf

frenchfighter

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/giro-di ... says-vegni

salsiccia1

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The very last thing I want to see (yes, this post is about me) is the Giro having to lose it's
identity, by chopping a third off it's length, on the off chance it can attract the TDF crowd.
To me, the Giro has always been about it's unique parcour, not it's field; the race, not the racers.
The Giro may not be as big as Le Tour, but it will always be bigger than the current crop of
cycling celebrity.
It's a more modest race than the Tour, so a more modest startlist will suffice.

For those interested, this is an interesting publication which has all the numbers that show the scale
of the event.
http://www.gazzetta.it/Giroditalia/2014 ... 14_WEB.pdf

Nicely put.

dolan_driver

I'm not sure the Giro needs a big English-speaking winner to raise its profile. It has already had three English-speaking winners (correct me if I'm wrong) and that has neither done it any harm or any huge favours, not that it really needs any. What the Giro probably needs at the moment is a brace of Italian riders challenging for the overall as well as riders from other nations. Invariably these days, the Giro often offers up better actual racing than the Tour.

The ambitions of the Giro organisers to match the Tour is a little worrying. Do they want to create some kind of huge money machine for the organising company or do they want to see to it that the Giro has greater TV coverage globally? The beauty of the Giro is that it is not the Tour. It appears the Tour has become a corporate monster first and a bicycle race second. Most riders these days seem to comment on the pressure and madness of the Tour and thus they actually prefer to race in the Giro or Vuelta.

If anyone has ever cycled on holiday in Italy, they will understand why it is such a special race. Cycling is truly part of Italian sporting culture. The country is beautiful and they make the most beautiful bikes and cycling clothing. The leader's jersey is pink, for God's sake! How could we not love this race?

It is actually a pity the Giro is on so early in the season because it offers probably the best Grand Tour spectacle of the year for racing fans, even if Froome, Contador et al are not present.

DD.

markhewitt1978

TV coverage plays a large part in how prestigious the event is. ITV4 coverage of the Tour de France is especially important. Yet I don't see any coverage of the Giro. (And Eurosport doesn't count, few watch Eurosport!)

phreak

There was talk not so long ago about alternating the Tour and Giro each year, so every 2nd year the Giro would be run in July. I dare say that if that were to have legs then it would need to be three way, with the Vuelta added to the mix, but it might make things more interesting.

dougzz

I'd say most people would see the Vuelta as the least prestigious. So how about moving the Giro to September, and offering a £million bonus for the double, perhaps funded through insurance. September would I believe also make it less likely that passes would be closed and the route have to be changed. If the Giro was after the Tour more top riders would be prepared to double up, but no one will chance ruining Tour prep for a shot at the Giro, the other way round, more will be willing to have a go. No idea how realistic any of this is.

salsiccia1

phreak wrote:

There was talk not so long ago about alternating the Tour and Giro each year, so every 2nd year the Giro would be run in July. I dare say that if that were to have legs then it would need to be three way, with the Vuelta added to the mix, but it might make things more interesting.

Nice idea, but if you were the ASO, would you relinquish the prime weeks of the season to your biggest competitor willingly?

dougzz

phreak wrote:

There was talk not so long ago about alternating the Tour and Giro each year, so every 2nd year the Giro would be run in July. I dare say that if that were to have legs then it would need to be three way, with the Vuelta added to the mix, but it might make things more interesting.

The Tour giving up July seems about as likely as Bill Gates agreeing to pool his savings with mine.

salsiccia1

You've probably guessed this from my previous posts, but I think the Giro is on of the few things in cycling that should be left well alone. It's a beautiful race, and the time of the year really suits the character of the race. It shouldn't get any bigger (it's the Tour that should be getting smaller), but it should definitely stay at 3 weeks.

Whilst I love the Tour, the Giro is absolutely my favourite stage race of the year.

markhewitt1978

It would be nice to see the major names in cycling do all three, even if they aren't competing for the win in every one, it would be good to see them there.

thomthom

Macaloon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Whilst I grew up watching the Tour, as I've learned more about the sport, and ridden in more places in Europe, the Giro just seems a better race in every possible way, except the quality of rider it can attract.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful routes available to the Giro don't have the very best flying up them. It got me thinking whether the Giro will ever catch up with the Tour in attracting the best riders in the world, and what might need to happen for them to do so.

Serious sports organise themselves around showdowns between the highest ranked players. Sacred cows like Wimbledon's grass speed for Nadal, and domestic footy leagues etc, are regularly sacrificed to maintain the regular drama of best vs best.

The Giro might regularly attract 4 of the top ten every year, but so does the Europa league. Quintana is doing the equivalent of Arsenal targeting the Europa. Nibali 2014 is like Murray missing wimbledon to peak for the US Open.

GTs need to become easier - 2 week Giros and Vueltas - and the schedule may need a tweak to create a bigger gap between Giro and Tour. Difficult. Nigh on impossible. But imagine the impact on the sport's finances if interest in the Giro was even 25% of the Tour. Just for a laugh imagine Froome and Contador in the line-up.

When F1 can put hairdryers in their cars in the name of progress, cycling looks incredibly backward.

You can chop off as much as you want of the GT's, offer as many bonuses to attracts riders and make bigger gaps between the races - but as long as it's not happening i July it will do very litte. It's that simple. Which is why the idea in phreak's post makes sense.

tuneskyline

The Giro is a superb race and very exciting with some incredible climbs not seen at the tour. It seems more old school compared to the tour which has become more and more like a commercial commodity and has lost some of it's soul. The lack of Froome and Contador makes the Giro seem almost 2nd rate. I would like to see the main contenders start to race the Giro again. Maybe take a year out from the tour and race the Giro and give back it's status as race for the best of the best.

ozzzyosborn206

ThomThom wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Whilst I grew up watching the Tour, as I've learned more about the sport, and ridden in more places in Europe, the Giro just seems a better race in every possible way, except the quality of rider it can attract.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful routes available to the Giro don't have the very best flying up them. It got me thinking whether the Giro will ever catch up with the Tour in attracting the best riders in the world, and what might need to happen for them to do so.

Serious sports organise themselves around showdowns between the highest ranked players. Sacred cows like Wimbledon's grass speed for Nadal, and domestic footy leagues etc, are regularly sacrificed to maintain the regular drama of best vs best.

The Giro might regularly attract 4 of the top ten every year, but so does the Europa league. Quintana is doing the equivalent of Arsenal targeting the Europa. Nibali 2014 is like Murray missing wimbledon to peak for the US Open.

GTs need to become easier - 2 week Giros and Vueltas - and the schedule may need a tweak to create a bigger gap between Giro and Tour. Difficult. Nigh on impossible. But imagine the impact on the sport's finances if interest in the Giro was even 25% of the Tour. Just for a laugh imagine Froome and Contador in the line-up.

When F1 can put hairdryers in their cars in the name of progress, cycling looks incredibly backward.

You can chop off as much as you want of the GT's, offer as many bonuses to attracts riders and make bigger gaps between the races - but as long as it's not happening i July it will do very litte. It's that simple. Which is why the idea in phreak's post makes sense.

Why is it being in July so important? my bet is regardless of when the race is held the TdF will always be the biggest because of its history, everyone has heard of the tour very few non cyclists know about the Veulta or the Giro.

Something I think should be tried but it doesn't have to be in a GT could just be a week long tour but to have shorter races say 150-200k rather than 200-250k i think this would make races more exciting with more attacking because more riders would have the legs in the finale

Macaloon

ThomThom wrote:

You can chop off as much as you want of the GT's, offer as many bonuses to attracts riders and make bigger gaps between the races - but as long as it's not happening i July it will do very litte. It's that simple. Which is why the idea in phreak's post makes sense.

I'm not one of these wild romantics like Oscar Wilde, upthread. While traditions are important, and one of the interesting aspects of the sport is its ramshackle structure, I want to watch elite sport, not a history/travel show. All I want is a few epic battles a season between the top guys.

No_Ta_Doctor

Part of the problem for me is that the Giro, and even more the Vuelta, are at risk of becoming a little freak-showish as they struggle to find that feature that will make them special for the fans. The Vuelta's climbs are becoming absurd, the Giro wanted riders on dirt tracks (and has also found some pretty mad climbs). I'm not against this per-se, but they're not really going out of their way to offer a balanced parcours that both climbers and rouleurs will look at and say "I fancy that". Add to that the the Giro usually gets it's sprints over as quickly as possible and it loses a lot of the variation of the Tour. Which of the top sprinters will be riding it this year? I know already that Cav isn't.

In short, the Tour is far more balanced and mature, offering chances for more riders, and just happens to be hugely more exposed.

phreak

Isn't the first week of the Tour usually deadly dull though? I mean the only source of real intrigue is which favourite crashes out.

For me, the best grand tour in recent memory was the 2010 Giro. You had the strada bianchi stage early on to mix things up, you had the super steep stuff such as the Zoncolan and Mortirolo, you had epic climbs like the Gavia and the Grappa and a mountain time trial up the Corones. That kind of had everything you could want, especially with the huge split in the peleton on stage 11.

rick_chasey

Cycling's fundamental problem is that the top races are too difficult to be tackled together in a season and remain competitive. They're just too knackering.

Doing the Giro and the Tour both with a view to win means you will lose out on one or the other, or, more likely, both. So inevitably people begin to focus on one or the other.

As Thom Thom says, you always want to see the top against the top, so they all tend to congregate and focus around the same one - July being a time when everyone's off on holiday always meant the Tour was going to win out on that one.

This wasn't necessarily the case 30-40 years ago, but that was in an era which was ultimately a lot less competitive, with fewer players ( basically just people from Western continental Europe) where the margins for the world's best were big enough that you could afford to drop a fair bit of percent of form to compete in both.

knedlicky

No tA Doctor wrote:

the Giro … not really going out of their way to offer a balanced parcours that both climbers and rouleurs will look at and say "I fancy that". Add to that the the Giro usually gets it's sprints over as quickly as possible and it loses a lot of the variation of the Tour. Which of the top sprinters will be riding it this year? I know already that Cav isn't.

Is the TdF more balanced? For me too many stages are either just for sprinters or climbers, and the Tour doesn’t make enough use of the middle-mountains which France has. In that way I actually think, in contrast to you, that the TdF offers chances for fewer riders than the Giro.

The Giro has less time for sprints simply because of the different geography of the two lands – vast areas of France are almost if not completely flat, but really only the area either side of the Po valley in Italy is flat.

Evenso, despite your doubt about how many top sprinters will be riding the Giro this year, there are quite a number - Kittel, Viviani (two riders who’ve shown they can beat Cavendish), Nizzolo, Appollonio, Bouhanni, Farrar, Ferrari, Chicchi, Cav’s teammate Petacchi, a couple from Orica, Kittel’s team mate Mezgec.
As consequence, Cavendish will probably have it easy in the Tour (and diminish the value of his success – if it happens).

knedlicky

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cycling's fundamental problem is that the top races are too difficult to be tackled together in a season and remain competitive. They're just too knackering.
This wasn't necessarily the case 30-40 years ago, … where the margins for the world's best were big enough that you could afford to drop a fair bit of percent of form to compete in both.

I don’t think the latter statement is entirely true – I’m not wholly sure but I think few riders attempted both GTs in the same year.

blazing_saddles

No tA Doctor wrote:

Part of the problem for me is that the Giro, and even more the Vuelta, are at risk of becoming a little freak-showish as they struggle to find that feature that will make them special for the fans. The Vuelta's climbs are becoming absurd, the Giro wanted riders on dirt tracks (and has also found some pretty mad climbs). I'm not against this per-se, but they're not really going out of their way to offer a balanced parcours that both climbers and rouleurs will look at and say "I fancy that". Add to that the the Giro usually gets it's sprints over as quickly as possible and it loses a lot of the variation of the Tour. Which of the top sprinters will be riding it this year? I know already that Cav isn't.

In short, the Tour is far more balanced and mature, offering chances for more riders, and just happens to be hugely more exposed.

Strade bianche (not in this Giro) is not OK, but cobbles (in this Tour) are OK? Both hold historical significance.
The Tour has also recently gone in search of shorter climbs with steeper gradients, not that there are an abundance in France. The Tour now copying the Giro by having a mountain finish on the penultimate stage.
Yorkshire?
They say that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery

mm1

tuneskyline wrote:

The Giro is a superb race and very exciting with some incredible climbs not seen at the tour. It seems more old school compared to the tour which has become more and more like a commercial commodity and has lost some of it's soul.

Agree. Have re-watched the Eurosport highlights of the 2013 Giro over the last few days, and it looks totally different to the Tour - more variation in terrain and, crucially more narrow and twisting roads that produce dynamic and interesting racing. The difference was alluded to in the recent Puy de Dome thread, the Tour has outgrown all the old N roads (if they still exist), so apart from the odd difficulties that are thrown in as a sop to tradition seems to be run mostly on drag strips that are big enough to take a 200 man bunch and the accompanying car rally. The result is dull, dull, dull.