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Football fandom

GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
edited April 2014 in The cake stop
It said on the news that David Moyes had managed Everton for about ten years. If someone claimed in 2005 to be an Everton fan, and they still were last year, then they'd mainly have been a fan of Mr. Moyes - there can't be much else that stays the same in a football team for that long. So what is it that a lifelong football supporter supports? Is it just some tribal sense of belonging, like being a goth or a mod?
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  • bdu98252bdu98252 Posts: 171
    Football fans support the institution that is the club with the stadium being like a temple. You could change every single person on the books and they would return to the same stadium to watch the next game. Whilst individuals within a club are no doubt seen as important and respected based roughly on their past achievements it is the institution not the individuals that they follow.
  • southdownswolfsouthdownswolf Posts: 1,514
    Goth, Mod, Rocker, Christian, Jew, Team Sky, Team Europcar.....

    People show their allegiances for many reasons. It could be a member of the team/group/movement. It could be locality. It could be what they believe will happen. However in sport it is unlikely to be because of a manager, although people might like a particular manager, it is unlikely that they would change allegiance because of a manager.
  • "That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer
  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    bdu98252 wrote:
    Football fans support the institution that is the club with the stadium being like a temple. You could change every single person on the books and they would return to the same stadium to watch the next game. Whilst individuals within a club are no doubt seen as important and respected based roughly on their past achievements it is the institution not the individuals that they follow.

    So what defines the institution, given that plenty of the teams move stadium from time to time? And on a philosophical level, how would it be different if I claimed only to like films that were made by Warner Brothers?
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  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,420
    Giraffoto wrote:
    bdu98252 wrote:
    Football fans support the institution that is the club with the stadium being like a temple. You could change every single person on the books and they would return to the same stadium to watch the next game. Whilst individuals within a club are no doubt seen as important and respected based roughly on their past achievements it is the institution not the individuals that they follow.

    So what defines the institution, given that plenty of the teams move stadium from time to time? And on a philosophical level, how would it be different if I claimed only to like films that were made by Vivid?


    FTFY :wink:
  • fast as fuppfast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    Giraffoto wrote:
    It said on the news that David Moyes had managed Everton for about ten years. If someone claimed in 2005 to be an Everton fan, and they still were last year, then they'd mainly have been a fan of Mr. Moyes - there can't be much else that stays the same in a football team for that long. So what is it that a lifelong football supporter supports? Is it just some tribal sense of belonging, like being a goth or a mod?


    if you have to ask that question, youll never understand.
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • Frank the tankFrank the tank Posts: 6,806
    Giraffoto wrote:
    It said on the news that David Moyes had managed Everton for about ten years. If someone claimed in 2005 to be an Everton fan, and they still were last year, then they'd mainly have been a fan of Mr. Moyes - there can't be much else that stays the same in a football team for that long. So what is it that a lifelong football supporter supports? Is it just some tribal sense of belonging, like being a goth or a mod?


    if you have to ask that question, youll never understand.
    Exactly, faf.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • Giraffoto wrote:
    bdu98252 wrote:
    Football fans support the institution that is the club with the stadium being like a temple. You could change every single person on the books and they would return to the same stadium to watch the next game. Whilst individuals within a club are no doubt seen as important and respected based roughly on their past achievements it is the institution not the individuals that they follow.

    So what defines the institution, given that plenty of the teams move stadium from time to time? And on a philosophical level, how would it be different if I claimed only to like films that were made by Warner Brothers?

    you dont support a stadium or personal. you just support the club. its ethos (at arsenal thats a struggle now as our ethos has changed to such an extent..the financials of the cirtual trophy are the sum total of ambition), the hand fate threw at you by genetics or the luck of youth.

    i find it very hard to take seriously those who have come to the game to support a club in later life. sure fair enough you may like them, but you will never truly get it.

    thats the trouble with arsenal fans, so many are arsene fans, they cannot imagine a life without him. there was a huge club there before him, and there will be when he finally f's off.

    moyes 9 months of failure: sacked
    wenger 9 years of failure: new £9m contract

    arsenal fc not arsene fc.
  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    you dont support a stadium or personal. you just support the club. its ethos ..., the hand fate threw at you by genetics or the luck of youth.

    What is the ethos of a club apart from "win football matches" or "increase the share price/profits"?
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  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    I've never understood people aligning themselves with a club/business/institution as a part of their identity and considering it a positive character trait that they stand by that club/business/institution regardless of who it's composed of, how they behave or how they perform. I've never heard an explanation that makes any sense. Apparently it's because you're only capable of getting it if you get it. So in most ways it's very much like a religion except that it seems much more important in most people's lives and yet makes no particular demands on the faithful so causes less trouble in the long run.

    In my book, blind allegiance is never something to be proud of but for some reason people always are! Patriotism, religion, tradition, etc are all catalysts for groupthink, collective irresponsiblity, narrow mindedness and stagnation.

    But hey, I'm just weird that way!
  • Ai_1 wrote:
    But hey, I'm just weird that way!

    Agreed
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Pseudo religious tribalism... Never saw the point. footie is not a matter of life and death but a mildly interesting and sometimes deathly boring pastime
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,342
    I think it's fascinating that the club culture is so deeply ingrained that despite it being primarily a business empire, fans accept sub-standard competition for the sake of allegiance to their 'club'.

    The US franchise model ensures high levels of competition until much later in the season. Can't remember exact figures but in the NFL this year, something like 60% of the teams could still possibly win the Superbowl with only 3 weeks of the regular season remaining.
    As a competitive spectacle, it's far superior to the traditional club system.
  • football tribalism is part of the culture of england. it just is. its like queuing or cups of tea. its the culture of most of europe and south america too.

    i think anyone who has no historical support of a club or no talent for the game (you can be good at it but not interested in it just) is deeply suspicious. picked last at school, bullied by the pe teacher, etc.

    unless of course you play or like gods own game.
  • Richard_DRichard_D Posts: 320
    I would rather that people express their tribal rivalries by supporting sports teams than in armed warfare. Many people feel they have to be identified as part of a tribe rather than purely on their own merit.
    I am not a fanatic and have not been to association, union or league game in more years than I care to mention but will occasionally check the sports pages to see how 'my' team did. My choices of team are based on where I grew up.
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    The brain is hard wired for tribalism as an evolutionary advantage. According to a study by Robin Dunbar at the University of Liverpool, primate brain size is determined by social group size.
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...

    Didn't fancy WBA?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • 4kicks4kicks Posts: 549
    I love that and Im going to pretend I came up with it.
    Fitter....healthier....more productive.....
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,420
    Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...

    Didn't fancy WBA?

    Does anyone?
    COYW
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    ....i think anyone who has no historical support of a club or no talent for the game (you can be good at it but not interested in it just) is deeply suspicious. picked last at school, bullied by the pe teacher, etc.

    unless of course you play or like gods own game.
    It's suspicious when someone doesn't follow the herd? What are your suspicions? That they have a bit of independence and are self confident enough to say "not for me thanks"? You may be right but I think these are positive traits.
    However, I don't get how you can be deeply suspicious of someone who has no talent for football. What does this mean? Poor athleticism and coordination with respect to a specific sport makes you suspicious of what exactly? That they are not born athletes? This makes no sense!
    Do you typically discriminate against everyone who's not athletic and sporty?

    I was always fairly athletic as a kid and was well able to play. It was a bit of fun but I never loved it. While it can be enjoyable to play, I've always thought it was an appallingly poor spectator sport. True it might be slightly more interesting if I knew more about it but why would I waste the time. People's interest in soccer is primarily fuelled by the tribalism just as interest in horse racing is primarily fuelled by the gambling. Neither is primarily about the sporting activity itself IMO.
  • southdownswolfsouthdownswolf Posts: 1,514
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...

    Didn't fancy WBA?

    Does anyone?
    COYW

    The closest team to me when I grew up was WBA, luckily for me I was not inbred, so my Dad took me to the Golden Palace and I became a Wolves supporter.
  • Ballysmate wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...

    Didn't fancy WBA?

    Does anyone?
    COYW

    The closest team to me when I grew up was WBA, luckily for me I was not inbred, so my Dad took me to the Golden Palace and I became a Wolves supporter.

    How does it feel to win a Division 3 Championship?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • CygnusCygnus Posts: 1,879
    Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...
    There's a lesson to all kids, learn to read or you'll end up supporting a shite team.
  • Ai_1 wrote:
    ....i think anyone who has no historical support of a club or no talent for the game (you can be good at it but not interested in it just) is deeply suspicious. picked last at school, bullied by the pe teacher, etc.

    unless of course you play or like gods own game.
    It's suspicious when someone doesn't follow the herd? What are your suspicions? That they have a bit of independence and are self confident enough to say "not for me thanks"? You may be right but I think these are positive traits.
    However, I don't get how you can be deeply suspicious of someone who has no talent for football. What does this mean? Poor athleticism and coordination with respect to a specific sport makes you suspicious of what exactly? That they are not born athletes? This makes no sense!
    Do you typically discriminate against everyone who's not athletic and sporty?

    I was always fairly athletic as a kid and was well able to play. It was a bit of fun but I never loved it. While it can be enjoyable to play, I've always thought it was an appallingly poor spectator sport. True it might be slightly more interesting if I knew more about it but why would I waste the time. People's interest in soccer is primarily fuelled by the tribalism just as interest in horse racing is primarily fuelled by the gambling. Neither is primarily about the sporting activity itself IMO.


    yep im prejudiced against most things/people. men who dont like or at leats pretend to like and have a knowledge of, or play proper sports football/cricket/maybe even egg chasing if your a bit posh, then theres something not quie right.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    .....yep im prejudiced against most things/people. men who dont like or at leats pretend to like and have a knowledge of, or play proper sports football/cricket/maybe even egg chasing if your a bit posh, then theres something not quie right.
    I'm trying to tell if you're kidding or not and I just can't decide!
    If not - you have a frightening mind. I'm sure a vast number of people really do love football but I also suspect plenty "football fans" although they may not even admit it to themselves, don't really think it's such a great game. There's a lot of pressure to follow it because that's just what you do. After all what else are you going to talk to your Dad or your friends about? That's a bit sad but okay. You on the other hand think there's something wrong with someone who's willing to say what they think! You're fine with them not liking football so long as they play the part....
  • southdownswolfsouthdownswolf Posts: 1,514
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    my choice of team is QPR because that was the only one i could recognise on the final scores before i learned to read...

    Didn't fancy WBA?

    Does anyone?
    COYW

    The closest team to me when I grew up was WBA, luckily for me I was not inbred, so my Dad took me to the Golden Palace and I became a Wolves supporter.

    How does it feel to win a Division 3 Championship?

    I think a lot of Wolves fans will agree, it beats any of the years we have had in the Premiership.
    Going to some of the away matches and actually chatting to "home" fans in the bar at the ground, without the police/stewards treating you like cattle has been fantastic.
  • bobbydazzlabobbydazzla Posts: 289
    You should have an irrefutable reason for supporting a team, based primarily on ties to the local area. For instance you grew up in the area, or you support the team of your father and he grew up in the area of his team.

    There is no justification for anyone to become a supporter of a team based purely on their track record of success in recent years e.g. first generation Manchester United fans in Herts.

    Doing so shows a lack of character and ethics. The type of person who chooses this path in life is also someone who'd take pride in securing a Strava KOM by utilising DigitalEPO.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    You should have an irrefutable reason for supporting a team, based primarily on ties to the local area. For instance you grew up in the area, or you support the team of your father and he grew up in the area of his team.

    There is no justification for anyone to become a supporter of a team based purely on their track record of success in recent years e.g. first generation Manchester United fans in Herts.

    Doing so shows a lack of character and ethics. The type of person who chooses this path in life is also someone who'd take pride in securing a Strava KOM by utilising DigitalEPO.
    So you reckon hokum is acceptable but poppycock is poor form
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Couldn't have put it better myself!
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