Shimano C35 vs C50 wheels
colin72blue
Posts: 21
Have read loads of posts about aero wheels generally and got the usual internet conflicting opinions but in the main the consensus seems to be that there is a benefit from riding C50 wheels (or similar) from an aero point of view and some even describe it like a small turbo effect when you get above 20mph. Others say it will increase your average speed by about 0.3mph so barely noticeable.
My current itch is for some new wheels largely based on cosmetics but at the same time would like to feel a noticeable difference form changing. The C50 (dura ace or RS) is currently favourite but seems to be very expensive and in limited supply at the moment
I can get the C35 RS81 much cheaper so the question is would they be noticeably slower than the C50? Anyone tried both or use both?
Current wheels are archetype rims on Ultgera hubs which have been fine so far just fancy a change really in the hope that i may be able to increase speed slightly or at least feel faster! These are about 1.9kg so the Shimano should be lighter
My local riding is generally flat but being coastal can get windy. Having said that if its above 20mph I don't normally go out as have enough of the wind during the weekly commute. Typically my ride is an early morning Saturday or Sunday 35 mile ride but weather and time permitting can be a proper day out (but again only limited climbing). Have done a few sportives but very rare due to family commitments etc. and the last one was so badly organised it put me off.
May consider club racing/riding as well at some point but would be a very casual basis
Have read excellent reports on both wheels just struggled to find opinions from people that have tried both and made proper comparisons
I also read that Dura ace C24 are very good wheels and have considered those as a lightweight alternative if the aero option doesn't work out (also the C24 is almost half the price of the C35/C50?)
On the basis the new wheels are largely for cosmetic reasons i don't want to spend loads if the gain is minimal. As it is I'm struggling to see the extra benefit of dura ace over RS with the exception of the C24
So in summary will I feel a speed benefit from C35 and a bigger benefit from C50?
Let the comments/questions begin
My current itch is for some new wheels largely based on cosmetics but at the same time would like to feel a noticeable difference form changing. The C50 (dura ace or RS) is currently favourite but seems to be very expensive and in limited supply at the moment
I can get the C35 RS81 much cheaper so the question is would they be noticeably slower than the C50? Anyone tried both or use both?
Current wheels are archetype rims on Ultgera hubs which have been fine so far just fancy a change really in the hope that i may be able to increase speed slightly or at least feel faster! These are about 1.9kg so the Shimano should be lighter
My local riding is generally flat but being coastal can get windy. Having said that if its above 20mph I don't normally go out as have enough of the wind during the weekly commute. Typically my ride is an early morning Saturday or Sunday 35 mile ride but weather and time permitting can be a proper day out (but again only limited climbing). Have done a few sportives but very rare due to family commitments etc. and the last one was so badly organised it put me off.
May consider club racing/riding as well at some point but would be a very casual basis
Have read excellent reports on both wheels just struggled to find opinions from people that have tried both and made proper comparisons
I also read that Dura ace C24 are very good wheels and have considered those as a lightweight alternative if the aero option doesn't work out (also the C24 is almost half the price of the C35/C50?)
On the basis the new wheels are largely for cosmetic reasons i don't want to spend loads if the gain is minimal. As it is I'm struggling to see the extra benefit of dura ace over RS with the exception of the C24
So in summary will I feel a speed benefit from C35 and a bigger benefit from C50?
Let the comments/questions begin
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Some even describe it like a small turbo effect when you get above 20mph.
I've experienced this but with RS80 C24 wheels - so not aero at all. Just in comparison to my stock wheels.0 -
Just get the c50s. They look ace! Only benefit I have noticed is their lightness compared to my non-aero Alex wheels.0
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I bought some RS80 C50s purely on the basis that they were stupidly cheap (£280 from memory) and because my Dutch rides always seem to be into a wind for long stints so my "aero" speed is relatively high. Weight is also not an issue and, in the warmer weather, I've been averaging around 20mph with my standard RS80s so I'm interested to see what they do. Not tried them yet - in fact just have them out to fit some tyres.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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meanredspider wrote:I bought some RS80 C50s purely on the basis that they were stupidly cheap (£280 from memory) and because my Dutch rides always seem to be into a wind for long stints so my "aero" speed is relatively high. Weight is also not an issue and, in the warmer weather, I've been averaging around 20mph with my standard RS80s so I'm interested to see what they do. Not tried them yet - in fact just have them out to fit some tyres.
When you say standard RS80 I assume you mean C24?
If you could get the tyres fitted and pop out for a ride then let men know later this afternoon that would be great!
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colin72blue wrote:My current itch is for some new wheels largely based on cosmetics but at the same time would like to feel a noticeable difference form changing.
If the issue is cosmetic, then the only justification is whether you like the look of them or not. If there is a need to experience some kind of speed benefit, then this may be less clear cut. Aero rims may well save you a small amount of time over a certain distance, but if you are buying them in the hope that they will make you significantly faster, then you may be disappointed.0 -
Imposter wrote:colin72blue wrote:My current itch is for some new wheels largely based on cosmetics but at the same time would like to feel a noticeable difference form changing.
If the issue is cosmetic, then the only justification is whether you like the look of them or not. If there is a need to experience some kind of speed benefit, then this may be less clear cut. Aero rims may well save you a small amount of time over a certain distance, but if you are buying them in the hope that they will make you significantly faster, then you may be disappointed.
Not expecting to see a massive difference but realsitically could you see an increase of 0.5, 1 or 2mph on average speed over the same flat route? Maybe more importantly would they feel faster even if it is just on short bursts where the speed gets up to 20 or 25mph
I suppose I would feel a bit miffed if after spending £600+ on wheels they were no actual difference. By comparison a set of light wheels would be a noticeable difference even if its just from initial pick up/acceleration and the occasional short hill climb. My only experience of light wheels was Mavic R Sys which felt very different from my current wheels although probably no different over a given distance0 -
colin72blue wrote:Not expecting to see a massive difference but realsitically could you see an increase of 0.5, 1 or 2mph on average speed over the same flat route?
1-2mph *is* a massive difference. If that's what you are expecting, then put your money away.0 -
Imposter wrote:colin72blue wrote:Not expecting to see a massive difference but realsitically could you see an increase of 0.5, 1 or 2mph on average speed over the same flat route?
1-2mph *is* a massive difference. If that's what you are expecting, then put your money away.
Agreed. Not actually sure why I put 2mph :oops: Was trying to establish another view of where between zero and 1mph the increase in average speed could be
So could I see any difference in average? At the moment my average speed can vary by 1mph depending on various factors but would be nice to see some sort of increase by going for C50's.
No comments on C35's yet
When I got the frame it was the C35 dura ace I really wanted due to looks alone but price wise they were way too expensive (and still are) but the RS version are more affordable0 -
There's an old saying in time trialling - goes something like 'train to knock off the minutes - spend to knock off the seconds' - or words to that effect.
If you want nice wheels, go for it. If you want to go faster, then understand that there are no easy ways to big speed gains.0 -
Hi Colin,
I have ridden many different wheels, some built by myself, others built by Mavic and Campagnolo. The ONLY difference I can immediately spot is when I am on those chunky bladed 3.2 mm wide spokes that Mavic fits and when I am on a wider rim.
The rest is all placebo, meaning the effect is reversed as I go back to the previous wheelset after a while.
Basically it's new it's exciting and feels slightly different, which my brain processes as "life changingly different"... then I get used to it. 6 Months later I fit the other wheels back and boy they feel different, they're great!
The placebo effect also has an impact on your hormone levels, which makes you dig that little bit deeper and get some better numbers out for the first while... then you go back to where you belong.
If you look at the only reliable numbers, which are power output Vs speed, or in other words how efficient you+ your bike are as a machine, you will realise the differences are negligible.
Negligible differences make tangible differences in a race against the clock, but that's only because you consider 30 seconds over 30 minutes a meaningful improvement, when in fact it's only 1/60 better, or just over 1%.
If you get overexcited and tell your wife you are 30 seconds faster over a 30 minutes effort, she will probably think you've gone bonkers and she is right. On the next TT a light head breeze will knock you back 2 minutesleft the forum March 20230 -
Yes - in reality a pointy helmet will make more difference (you'll feel like Flash Gordon, you will go faster and you'll look a total nob
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I did actually put the tyres on the wheels and the wheels on the bike but it's pi55ing down and I'm not especially inclined to head out in that 8)
And yes, they're both RS80 (C24 vs C50). In a pretty inexact bit of weighing, I reckoned the C50 front wheel was something like 200g heavier than the C24. Not a problem on most of my rides around here as I rarely stop and the bridges are the biggest "hills"ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
we always rehash the same stuff: viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12963623
i'm one who votes that 50mm do make a difference over shallow (19-25mm deep) rims. But the say so of someone you've not met isn't good enough. You really need to borrow a pair and make up your own mind. A shop or someone you know must have a pair of deep wheels (ie. >45 mm) you can borrow. I've put it off forever, then I borrowed some 404s and loved them. Felt the difference right away. Loved them so much I bought a couple pairs of deep wheels and after a bit of trial and error I sold the pair I didn't want.
They're not every day, but if you spend 5-6 hours by yourself on a sportive, this is where they make the biggest impact. I find that most UK sportives are like TTs, I don't ride with anyone. Since sportive riding is all about a steady pace, the weight of deep wheels is easily offset by whatever aero benefits they offer. You're not doing explosive accelerations where rotating mass holds you back.
Maybe buy a used pair of DA 50s?When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.0 -
FransJacques wrote:we always rehash the same stuff: viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12963623
i'm one who votes that 50mm do make a difference over shallow (19-25mm deep) rims. But the say so of someone you've not met isn't good enough. You really need to borrow a pair and make up your own mind. A shop or someone you know must have a pair of deep wheels (ie. >45 mm) you can borrow. I've put it off forever, then I borrowed some 404s and loved them. Felt the difference right away. Loved them so much I bought a couple pairs of deep wheels and after a bit of trial and error I sold the pair I didn't want.
They're not every day, but if you spend 5-6 hours by yourself on a sportive, this is where they make the biggest impact. I find that most UK sportives are like TTs, I don't ride with anyone. Since sportive riding is all about a steady pace, the weight of deep wheels is easily offset by whatever aero benefits they offer. You're not doing explosive accelerations where rotating mass holds you back.
Maybe buy a used pair of DA 50s?
Thats sort of where this started. Found a pair of C50 dura ace for sale (7900 series) which as much as anything i like the look of but at £600 although much cheaper wasnt something to just rush out and buy (although if i did and didnt like them would probably get my money back
Then found a set of RS81 C35 for £350 and confusion set in
Unfortunately I dont know anyone with deep wheels, as I usually ride on my own and am not in a club, and don't know any local shops well enough so stuck with trial and error method
It is the same old topics but not had much from anyone that has experience of the 35's and 50's0 -
I have a pair of near new C35's for sale if you are interested
I actually only purchased them last weekend and am now selling them. After a bit of thinking and research I have come to the conclusion they suffer a little from the jack of all trades, master of none syndrome. My thoughts might help you.
I am a casual rider/Age group triathlete. Generally a long ride every weekend, do a hand full of sportifs and Olympic distance triathlons every year. I have a commuter so they would be fair weather wheels on my good bike. I was looking for an all rounder wheel, durable for london roads, aero for TT's and relatively light.
On the aero front they seem to be it a bit of a no mans land. From what I have read over the last week, especially for TT's, a 50mm + depth is required to gain any significant advantage. With the deeper the front wheel the better. At these depths depending on your weight side winds can be an issue. At 70kg, in the past I have felt a little uncomfortable on deeper wheels in higher winds. This generally not an issue during races but I wouldn't want to be blown around while I'm out on a Sunday ride and there is a bus passing too close. Width is also becoming a factor as well. Although wider than a standard rim at 20.8mm, it is still less than many of the new generation rims which range from 23-27mm.
Again they are in a bit of a no-mans land in weight as well. Not particularly heavy at 1700g and obviously lighter than the 50's (don't know the weight off the top of my head) but you can get a set of wide, semi aero hand built aluminum wheels in at close to 1500g depending on hubs.
They do seem to get good reviews in terms of durability. In short, I have decided to get two sorts of wheels, a wide semi aero set for the road and deep carbon tubular for triathlon. Obviously not the cheapest option but my big race isn't until November so I have a bit of time to save up. If you are just looking for a do it all wheel, that look pretty smart they could be for you.
In another thread Ugo discussing the DA versions mentioned that they use straight pull spokes which are expensive to replace. Which is another thing to consider.0 -
murphyti wrote:I have a pair of near new C35's for sale if you are interested
I actually only purchased them last weekend and am now selling them. After a bit of thinking and research I have come to the conclusion they suffer a little from the jack of all trades, master of none syndrome. My thoughts might help you.
I am a casual rider/Age group triathlete. Generally a long ride every weekend, do a hand full of sportifs and Olympic distance triathlons every year. I have a commuter so they would be fair weather wheels on my good bike. I was looking for an all rounder wheel, durable for london roads, aero for TT's and relatively light.
On the aero front they seem to be it a bit of a no mans land. From what I have read over the last week, especially for TT's, a 50mm + depth is required to gain any significant advantage. With the deeper the front wheel the better. At these depths depending on your weight side winds can be an issue. At 70kg, in the past I have felt a little uncomfortable on deeper wheels in higher winds. This generally not an issue during races but I wouldn't want to be blown around while I'm out on a Sunday ride and there is a bus passing too close. Width is also becoming a factor as well. Although wider than a standard rim at 20.8mm, it is still less than many of the new generation rims which range from 23-27mm.
Again they are in a bit of a no-mans land in weight as well. Not particularly heavy at 1700g and obviously lighter than the 50's (don't know the weight off the top of my head) but you can get a set of wide, semi aero hand built aluminum wheels in at close to 1500g depending on hubs.
They do seem to get good reviews in terms of durability. In short, I have decided to get two sorts of wheels, a wide semi aero set for the road and deep carbon tubular for triathlon. Obviously not the cheapest option but my big race isn't until November so I have a bit of time to save up. If you are just looking for a do it all wheel, that look pretty smart they could be for you.
In another thread Ugo discussing the DA versions mentioned that they use straight pull spokes which are expensive to replace. Which is another thing to consider.
Hi Murphy
Yours were the wheels I was actually referring to (and pm'd you earlier on LFGSS)!
On the basis my current wheels are archetypes maybe the C35's are too similar. Slightly lighter and slighter deeper but same hubs so probably no difference in the ride. Maybe I need to wait till the end of the year when the bargains come up or do the unthinkable and spend less time shopping and more time riding :shock:0 -
I thought that was the case. The price was something that threw me as well. Originally i was looking at 50's, they were much cheaper and not much more than 24's. Which inevitably lead me to pulling the trigger albeit prematurely.
To be honest, a set of archetypes or similar wheels (Pancenti SL23 or Kilin 279) is what I am looking at now. Although maybe if I can't move these I will have to ride them... worse things have happened.0 -
SOunds like the perfect setting for a wheels-swap! left the forum March 20230
