What did I do wrong?

Cycool

http://youtu.be/K_YOrzWJwSQ

6 minutes 5 seconds in to what is a boring video (apologies) I am attempting to turn right at a roundabout. I'm on the right of the road and am indicating right with my arm out in that direction. Nobody seems to want to let me go.
I am clipped in and very new to being clipped in and so had a wobble but managed to stay upright, just.

What am I doing wrong? Any advice on my newbie riding appreciated. I probably am in the wrong but am used
to being in a metal box so mistakes will be made.

Many thanks!

markhewitt1978

There's that one car there (the Peugeot) who should have given way to you, no question, but mini roundabouts can be confusing, he had to make split second choice and got it wrong. Part of the issue is that he's looking at the queue of cars, he's not expecting another stream of traffic (you) to be up alongside.

Cycool

Thanks for that, I guess I'm used to being in a larger vehicle and being seen. It's also not easy for me trying to indicate, brake and stay clipped in at the same time with cars all around. Hopefully I'll get used to it soon enough.

markhewitt1978

Don't try to stay clipped in, in that case I would be unclipping my left and getting ready to stop.

slowbike

It looked a bit grey - did you have a front flashing light on ?

The 2 cars that didn't give way either didn't see you or thought you were going straight on.

TBH, You're always going to get someone who hasn't seen you or doesn't want to let you through - you're just going to have to live with that and ensure that primarily you're safe.

Btw - no sound on the video - so can't tell if you shouted ...I've found open mouth vowel sounds are best - as it's the noise that attracts attention rather than the actual word - especially though closed windows. Doesn't need to be aggressive (another reason for using open mouth vowels as they're not offensive) - I see it the same as a car horn ... (although I'm usually louder! )

Cycool

Thanks for advice. I had a Lezyne Zecto on the front with one solid and 2 flashing lights on (daytime mode I think)
so should have been seen. I didn't shout as was trying to stay upright. I turned off the sound on the video as the
camera is attached to the bars and all you can hear with the closed back GoPro housing is rattling. I'm not looking
to blame the driver because, as you say, it was a split second decision on his part. Just wondering if there is more
I can do to make my intentions known. I appreciate your time and advice, will clip out before the roundabout in future.

slowbike

GoPro rattling - pad the camera out with a cut off of old inner tube - that reduces the rattling a bit ...

Shouting - it's only attention gathering - it doesn't matter if you do/don't.

Clipping in out - practice riding slowly clipped in - improves the balance - then do it one handed - I rarely clipout until I stop these days ... although my balance isn't brilliant - I can't trackstand

Cycool

Cheers, i'll try padding it out and see if it helps. My next video will have no rattling and much wheezing!
Being clipped in is a totally new sensation for me and have ridden maybe 4 times with the clips so will keep at it.
I already feel more confident in them but I'm am absolutely sure that one day soon i'll tip over like Del Boy when
he misses the bar! Just hope I'm not on a roundabout at that time.

bad_ash

I think the issue is that the oncoming vehicles are only expecting to check for one oncoming vehicle to their right, so when they see that car going straight on see that as a sign to go. I'm a pussy in traffic and in your position would have pulled into the middle of the lane behind the couple of the cars rather than overtake them and pulling onto the roundabout at the same time as them. At least then it is clear to the oncoming traffic that I'm the vehicle they need to be watching.

markhewitt1978

Bad Ash wrote:

I think the issue is that the oncoming vehicles are only expecting to check for one oncoming vehicle to their right, so when they see that car going straight on see that as a sign to go. I'm a pussy in traffic and in your position would have pulled into the middle of the lane behind the couple of the cars rather than overtake them and pulling onto the roundabout at the same time as them. At least then it is clear to the oncoming traffic that I'm the vehicle they need to be watching.

Same; I wouldn't have had the courage to go down the right hand side. But it's good advice in general at junctions to take the same line as cars would. As the likes of this relies on other drivers seeing you and taking notice of you, you need to be at the place they are looking.

Cycool

Maybe you're right. Just past this roundabout is a set of traffic lights. As this was around rush hour the traffic was stationary on the roundabout going straight on. As I was turning right on the roundabout, this is why I went to the right of the stationary cars. I could have waited in the queue of cars going straight on but the lights would take a few mins to change and for the cars to move on so went up while indicating right. It's an unusual set of circumstances for all involved I guess as roundabouts are generally constantly flowing. Will be doing the same route tonight at around the same time so will try a different tactic and see what happens!

slowbike

I would've gone down the outside - indicating right as you said you did ... it's called filtering and is acceptable.

I don't think you did anything particularly wrong - you have to assume everyone else on the road is a blithering idiot. Incidentally - had the car stopped and given way as required I would probably still have waved a thank you.

IME mini roundabouts do tend to be a bit of a free-for-all ... so you need to be assertive yet ready to give way at a moments notice.

Cycool

I think that what I need is some LED gloves that flash when I put my arm out! I bet they're out there somewhere!!
It seems the problem is likely my lack of assertion on a confusing roundabout. Just glad I stayed upright and got
home Ok really. Will see what happens later on the same roundabout.

slowbike

Cycool wrote:

I think that what I need is some LED gloves that flash when I put my arm out! I bet they're out there somewhere!!
It seems the problem is likely my lack of assertion on a confusing roundabout. Just glad I stayed upright and got
home Ok really. Will see what happens later on the same roundabout.

Not always - sometimes drivers are just dicks ....

Cycool

Well yeah, 'tis possibly a contributing factor.

markhewitt1978

Slowbike wrote:

Not always - sometimes drivers are just dicks ....

It can be really difficult in that situation, as if you're assertive then if they aren't stopping then you're going to get hit. But if you aren't assertive they assume you're giving way to them!

Schoie81

Cycool wrote:

I think that what I need is some LED gloves that flash when I put my arm out! I bet they're out there somewhere!!

I was given some flashing LED armbands for Christmas which you could put around your wrists!!

bad_ash

Slowbike wrote:

I would've gone down the outside - indicating right as you said you did ... it's called filtering and is acceptable.

While it's not wrong (and I wasn't trying to say previously that it was), sometimes it's better to play it safe and keep yourself alive, even though you know that you're in 'the right'.

I drive to work and there is a particular mini roundabout that I'd say 10% drivers don't correctly give way on. It's my right of way but I'll always approach cautiously and be ready to stop on the roundabout because I'd rather not have an accident even if it wouldn't have been classed my fault. I just don't want the hassle (and potential injury).

Cycool

Schoie81 wrote:

Cycool wrote:

I think that what I need is some LED gloves that flash when I put my arm out! I bet they're out there somewhere!!

I was given some flashing LED armbands for Christmas which you could put around your wrists!!

Ooh I wouldn't deprive you of such a stylish-sounding accessory! Probably would have killed for a set of them back
in the acid house days though.

markhewitt1978

The worst mini's are like the ones in the video , with three arms, they are what was an ordinary t-junction but now traffic going 'straight on' has to give way to turning traffic, when the dominant flow is straight on many cars just don't take this into account.

Cycool

Bad Ash wrote:

While it's not wrong (and I wasn't trying to say previously that it was), sometimes it's better to play it safe and keep yourself alive, even though you know that you're in 'the right'.

I agree with this line of thought, no use being in the right if you're flattened. The trouble is knowing when to be
assertive and when to back off. In the video there is a split second where he seems to be stopping (Peugeot) but
then carries on. If I'd been assertive I would have lost and been knocked off. As it was I wasn't assertive and avoided trouble luckily. Easy to see how riders get injured though with spilt seconds leading to disaster.

slowbike

Bad Ash wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I would've gone down the outside - indicating right as you said you did ... it's called filtering and is acceptable.

While it's not wrong (and I wasn't trying to say previously that it was), sometimes it's better to play it safe and keep yourself alive, even though you know that you're in 'the right'.

I drive to work and there is a particular mini roundabout that I'd say 10% drivers don't correctly give way on. It's my right of way but I'll always approach cautiously and be ready to stop on the roundabout because I'd rather not have an accident even if it wouldn't have been classed my fault. I just don't want the hassle (and potential injury).

That's fair - and completely in agreement - I was trying to discourage cyclists queuing when there was no need to do so.

Right of Way is a strong term and I believe it should be scrapped so nobody has Right of Way. It should be Priority - inferring that although you may have priority over other traffic, you don't have full right of way and should be prepared to Give Way at all times.
In practice there isn't much difference - but critically it softens the absolutes of Right of Way may lead more ppl into thinking about how they interact with other vehicles.

markhewitt1978

Although even in government documents they sometimes refer to right of way. In fact right of way only really means that you have the right to use a particular road, path, whatever. Being able to go first at a junction isn't a right, just a convention that people in certain positions have priority.

I agree that the term 'right of way' is damaging that it implies rights where there are none.

navrig2

I managed to watch the manouvre once before the lunchtime webtraffic froze YouTube so my initial reaction was that you took the mini-roundabout too quickly. In that traffic I would have been a bit more defensive and would anticipate that sort of car driver behaviour.

I would have approached it more slowly, stood up (to mkake myself bigger and more visible, especially if wearing bright clothing) signalled amphatically (i.e. fully horizontal arm for as long as possible) and unclipped. Look for eye contact with the oncoming driver (that's what I was told in my M/Bike training) and if not achieved assume you will have to stop.

You had right of way and the Peugot driver should have stopped. Being right doesn't fix bones and bikes.

Good for you cycling in that btraffic, I rarely do and it may be that I would take far too long through being overly defensive.

slowbike

Navrig2 wrote:

I managed to watch the manouvre once before the lunchtime webtraffic froze YouTube so my initial reaction was that you took the mini-roundabout too quickly. In that traffic I would have been a bit more defensive and would anticipate that sort of car driver behaviour.

I would have approached it more slowly, stood up (to mkake myself bigger and more visible, especially if wearing bright clothing) signalled amphatically (i.e. fully horizontal arm for as long as possible) and unclipped. Look for eye contact with the oncoming driver (that's what I was told in my M/Bike training) and if not achieved assume you will have to stop.

You had priority and the Peugot driver should have stopped. Being right doesn't fix bones and bikes.

Good for you cycling in that btraffic, I rarely do and it may be that I would take far too long through being overly defensive.

FTFY ...

navrig2

Slowbike wrote:

Navrig2 wrote:

I managed to watch the manouvre once before the lunchtime webtraffic froze YouTube so my initial reaction was that you took the mini-roundabout too quickly. In that traffic I would have been a bit more defensive and would anticipate that sort of car driver behaviour.

I would have approached it more slowly, stood up (to mkake myself bigger and more visible, especially if wearing bright clothing) signalled amphatically (i.e. fully horizontal arm for as long as possible) and unclipped. Look for eye contact with the oncoming driver (that's what I was told in my M/Bike training) and if not achieved assume you will have to stop.

You had priority and the Peugot driver should have stopped. Being right doesn't fix bones and bikes.

Good for you cycling in that btraffic, I rarely do and it may be that I would take far too long through being overly defensive.

FTFY ...

Thank you

Cycool

Navrig2 wrote:

I managed to watch the manouvre once before the lunchtime webtraffic froze YouTube so my initial reaction was that you took the mini-roundabout too quickly. In that traffic I would have been a bit more defensive and would anticipate that sort of car driver behaviour.

I would have approached it more slowly, stood up (to mkake myself bigger and more visible, especially if wearing bright clothing) signalled amphatically (i.e. fully horizontal arm for as long as possible) and unclipped. Look for eye contact with the oncoming driver (that's what I was told in my M/Bike training) and if not achieved assume you will have to stop.

You had right of way and the Peugot driver should have stopped. Being right doesn't fix bones and bikes.

Good for you cycling in that btraffic, I rarely do and it may be that I would take far too long through being overly defensive.

Some good points. I think maybe the video makes it appear I'm going faster than I am but will try and approach
slower next time. Although the traffic looked heavy in that area, the rest of the area is pretty light traffic-wise.
It's a small town in Surrey so nothing like London levels. With a nine month baby at home I have to grab any
chance I can to get out on the road before my duty starts and my GF gets her break so a bit of traffic is no
sufferance for some air!

larkim

It looked to me as if you rode straight over the mini-roundabout in a way that cars often do (but shouldn't) - I'd have taken a much more deliberate line on the black tarmac around the painted white mini roundabout, and put myself in a position where I was aiming the bike at the left hand side of the exit road following the manoeuvre. None of which would have stopped the cars from behaving the way that they did though!

Cycool

larkim wrote:

It looked to me as if you rode straight over the mini-roundabout in a way that cars often do (but shouldn't) - I'd have taken a much more deliberate line on the black tarmac around the painted white mini roundabout, and put myself in a position where I was aiming the bike at the left hand side of the exit road following the manoeuvre. None of which would have stopped the cars from behaving the way that they did though!

You are right, I crossed the painted circle but only because the roundabout was blocked, no excuse other than that. I had expected the Peugeot to stop and so hadn't clipped out and was left a bit stranded. I wobbled to the right because of the shock that he didn't stop and the fact that for some reason I couldn't put my foot down. I think
I was lucky in a few ways and will have to learn from anything I did wrong. I've been out riding for a week now
every day so should really have big L plate on my back but will learn and improve and know when to back off hopefully. I think half my reason for recording my rides is to look back and learn, the other half, of course, is
because I'm a geek and love gadgetry!

markhewitt1978

After you've learned clipless next is video editing

Cycool

markhewitt1978 wrote:

After you've learned clipless next is video editing

Harsh methinks! I could add some elevator music, possibly speed it up a bit for drama but if you want
explosions you're watching the wrong video! I'll try and put some effort into my next movie.