Limits of a Hardtail

The Rookie

Isn't that how they sell Orange 5's? Giving them to balding middle aged drivers of grey Audi's so that other balding middle aged Audi drivers then go and buy them?

fielonator

Ha! you'd never get an orange rider to say good morning unless you had another orange rider with you, the rest of us weren't worthy. They've mostly been replaced by guys on Yeti's.

Angus Young

The Rookie wrote:

Not my idea, it's marketing, it's having the 'right people' on the bike, not necessarily winning, it's what sells and that's a fact.

Mmm... I wonder why the rather drab and grumpy Schumaker commanded a premium over the likes of Eddie Irvine, definitely the choice of the two if you were picking someone to go for a beer with? Perhaps the sponsors were willing to pay more to see their logo on the top step of podium?

supersonic

It's a bit of both. Winners and personalities.

Angus Young

supersonic wrote:

It's a bit of both. Winners and personalities.

True. But that doesn't explain why they'd put a rider on a deficient bike for no other reason than it's their high ticket bike. There's a certain madness about the idea that they'd put their riders on a bike no-one can afford that gives their rider less of a chance of winning when they could give their rider a better chance on a bike that we can all afford and would buy by association. If you believe that then you probably believe that Prince Philip killed the blonde gold digger.

stubs

Does DH racing sell many bikes, DH bikes are so specialised they are more like engineless motorbikes than push bikes.

YellaBelly

stubs wrote:

Does DH racing sell many bikes, DH bikes are so specialised they are more like engineless motorbikes than push bikes.

Brand recognition. If that guy you saw doing something completely amazing on youtube had a big S on his bike, and you walked into a bike shop and saw bikes with a big S on them, you'd be more likely to buy the one you have seen/heard of. Or most people would anyway.

You can't buy the cars you see in the F1 either, but you recognise the name.

stubs

YellaBelly wrote:

stubs wrote:

Does DH racing sell many bikes, DH bikes are so specialised they are more like engineless motorbikes than push bikes.

Brand recognition. If that guy you saw doing something completely amazing on youtube had a big S on his bike, and you walked into a bike shop and saw bikes with a big S on them, you'd be more likely to buy the one you have seen/heard of. Or most people would anyway.

You can't buy the cars you see in the F1 either, but you recognise the name.

How many F1 teams also sell mass market cars. I doubt Lotus, Caterham, Maclaren or Mercedes sell many mid range hatchbacks.

YellaBelly

How does the kind of car they sell and into which market make any difference to the concept of brand recognition?

gt-arrowhead

YellaBelly wrote:

How does the kind of car they sell and into which market make any difference to the concept of brand recognition?

Well i can walk up to someone who has no clue about anything to do with F1 or have any interest in cars, and ask them if they know what a McLaren is, and they would look at me all puzzled and wouldnt have a clue what im on about. Because you dont see McLarens every day. But if you ask that same person what a Mercedes is, they would definitely know (unless they have a single digit IQ) because Mercedes mass produce cars that are marketed to your average person and you would probably see about 50 if you stood by the side of a busy road for 10-15 minutes. But McLaren on the other hand produce boutique expensive super cars for millionaires, which is a very small and exclusive market.

Point being, the type of car and market that a company sells a car in makes a huge difference for brand recognition. More cars/bigger market = more recognition.

paul.skibum

GT-Arrowhead wrote:

YellaBelly wrote:

How does the kind of car they sell and into which market make any difference to the concept of brand recognition?

Well i can walk up to someone who has no clue about anything to do with F1 or have any interest in cars, and ask them if they know what a McLaren is, and they would look at me all puzzled and wouldnt have a clue what im on about. Because you dont see McLarens every day. But if you ask that same person what a Mercedes is, they would definitely know (unless they have a single digit IQ) because Mercedes mass produce cars that are marketed to your average person and you would probably see about 50 if you stood by the side of a busy road for 10-15 minutes. But McLaren on the other hand produce boutique expensive super cars for millionaires, which is a very small and exclusive market.

Point being, the type of car and market that a company sells a car in makes a huge difference for brand recognition. More cars/bigger market = more recognition.

Yeah but that completely ignores the point about racing relating to brand recognition and sales - you are just saying there are more mercs on the road so people know them so they dont need to spend money on F1 then because they have enough cars on the road to keep them in the public conscious? Nonsense.

In Canada where a lot more DH bikes sell (as in a great many people own a DH bike and an AM bike) I think the relation between racers or slopestyle riders with the bikes they ride is very big - GT doesnt do too well in Canada because no one relates to the Athertons, Devinici is getting big because of Steve Smith's growing status.

Same with xc bikes, road bikes and so on - they definitely tie in to high end bike sales. Low end beginners? No idea how they chose brand but that might be where GT's idea comes in to play, monkey see monkey do.

welshkev

I've never bought a bike because I've seen someone riding one.

I buy my bikes on reviews or recommendations, but I guess I must be immune to the marketing hype

stubs

I can imagine the see it race on a sunday buy it on a monday thing might work for selling DH bikes but isnt that a tiny market selling by the dozen not the thousand. I can also see it influencing a spotty teen buying his first bike but how much profit is there in a £300 bike.

Does DH racing have much influence on shifting mid range bikes, I would say on what I see out and about riding no.

rockmonkeysc

paul.skibum wrote:

GT-Arrowhead wrote:

YellaBelly wrote:

How does the kind of car they sell and into which market make any difference to the concept of brand recognition?

Well i can walk up to someone who has no clue about anything to do with F1 or have any interest in cars, and ask them if they know what a McLaren is, and they would look at me all puzzled and wouldnt have a clue what im on about. Because you dont see McLarens every day. But if you ask that same person what a Mercedes is, they would definitely know (unless they have a single digit IQ) because Mercedes mass produce cars that are marketed to your average person and you would probably see about 50 if you stood by the side of a busy road for 10-15 minutes. But McLaren on the other hand produce boutique expensive super cars for millionaires, which is a very small and exclusive market.

Point being, the type of car and market that a company sells a car in makes a huge difference for brand recognition. More cars/bigger market = more recognition.

Yeah but that completely ignores the point about racing relating to brand recognition and sales - you are just saying there are more mercs on the road so people know them so they dont need to spend money on F1 then because they have enough cars on the road to keep them in the public conscious? Nonsense.

In Canada where a lot more DH bikes sell (as in a great many people own a DH bike and an AM bike) I think the relation between racers or slopestyle riders with the bikes they ride is very big - GT doesnt do too well in Canada because no one relates to the Athertons, Devinici is getting big because of Steve Smith's growing status.

Same with xc bikes, road bikes and so on - they definitely tie in to high end bike sales. Low end beginners? No idea how they chose brand but that might be where GT's idea comes in to play, monkey see monkey do.

GT don't do well because the Fury isn't very good. Davinci do very well because the Wilson is one of the best downhill bikes and good value. Over here a Carbon Wilson frame with CCDB shock is cheaper than a lot of aluminium frames with cheaper shocks.

fielonator

There you go then OP, get yourself a nice Davinci.

ali266

nick-gti wrote:

anyway...... OP you haven't said what spec your hardtail is so we can't comment on upgrading it

its a genesis core 20 from 2011. ive upgraded the fork to a fox 32 140mm talas, swapped it to a double ring and bash, new saddle pedals etc and put a set of 2.4 rubber queens on it (thinking of switching to specialized 2.3 butcher control up front and 2.3 purgatory control rear)
any thought on future upgrades?

welshkev

ali266 wrote:

nick-gti wrote:

anyway...... OP you haven't said what spec your hardtail is so we can't comment on upgrading it

its a genesis core 20 from 2011. ive upgraded the fork to a fox 32 140mm talas, swapped it to a double ring and bash, new saddle pedals etc and put a set of 2.4 rubber queens on it (thinking of switching to specialized 2.3 butcher control up front and 2.3 purgatory control rear)
any thought on future upgrades?

unless anything breaks then no. maybe a dropper post but that would be it.

ali266

welshkev wrote:

ali266 wrote:

nick-gti wrote:

anyway...... OP you haven't said what spec your hardtail is so we can't comment on upgrading it

its a genesis core 20 from 2011. ive upgraded the fork to a fox 32 140mm talas, swapped it to a double ring and bash, new saddle pedals etc and put a set of 2.4 rubber queens on it (thinking of switching to specialized 2.3 butcher control up front and 2.3 purgatory control rear)
any thought on future upgrades?

unless anything breaks then no. maybe a dropper post but that would be it.

what do you think about changing the tires, as i feel the rims arent wide enough to support the rubber queens
also are there any good cheap dropper posts?

welshkev

ali266 wrote:

welshkev wrote:

ali266 wrote:

nick-gti wrote:

anyway...... OP you haven't said what spec your hardtail is so we can't comment on upgrading it

its a genesis core 20 from 2011. ive upgraded the fork to a fox 32 140mm talas, swapped it to a double ring and bash, new saddle pedals etc and put a set of 2.4 rubber queens on it (thinking of switching to specialized 2.3 butcher control up front and 2.3 purgatory control rear)
any thought on future upgrades?

unless anything breaks then no. maybe a dropper post but that would be it.

what do you think about changing the tires, as i feel the rims arent wide enough to support the rubber queens
also are there any good cheap dropper posts?

I'm the last person to ask about tyres mate, I just run whatever I happen to have on the bike at the time

ali266

anyone got any opinions on swapping the 2.4 rubber queens out for a spec buther control 2.3 up front and spec purgatory control 2.3 rear?
also are there any cheap dropper posts?

Angus Young

welshkev wrote:

but I guess I must be immune to the marketing hype

That's what everyone likes to think. I think everyone imagines that being susceptible to influence is, somehow, weak when, in fact, it's the most natural of human responses.

fielonator

You don't want a cheap dropper post, it's an important interface between your arse and the bike, and needs to be reliable or you'll get fed up very quickly. Wider bars? Makes a hell of a difference. Also what's up with the rubber queens?

gt-arrowhead

paul.skibum wrote:

GT-Arrowhead wrote:

YellaBelly wrote:

How does the kind of car they sell and into which market make any difference to the concept of brand recognition?

Well i can walk up to someone who has no clue about anything to do with F1 or have any interest in cars, and ask them if they know what a McLaren is, and they would look at me all puzzled and wouldnt have a clue what im on about. Because you dont see McLarens every day. But if you ask that same person what a Mercedes is, they would definitely know (unless they have a single digit IQ) because Mercedes mass produce cars that are marketed to your average person and you would probably see about 50 if you stood by the side of a busy road for 10-15 minutes. But McLaren on the other hand produce boutique expensive super cars for millionaires, which is a very small and exclusive market.

Point being, the type of car and market that a company sells a car in makes a huge difference for brand recognition. More cars/bigger market = more recognition.

Yeah but that completely ignores the point about racing relating to brand recognition and sales - you are just saying there are more mercs on the road so people know them so they dont need to spend money on F1 then because they have enough cars on the road to keep them in the public conscious? Nonsense.

Racing does relate to brand recognition and sales. Renault for example have been massively successful in Formula 1 in the last 4 years winning the WDC and the Constructors championship. So obviously they will get massive brand recognition as they appear on news channels etc etc. Not to mention that Renault now have bragging rights in their adverts mentioning their success in the pinnacle of Motorsport. You also might be able to recall the Citroen advert for the DS3, where they mention their recent success in the WRC. All of this recognition is just part of the reason why teams enter racing. One of the biggest reasons why a team enters racing is to use motorsport as a sort of test bed for future parts on cars that will be sold to the public. A good exmaple will be Chevrolet with their Corvette. They say that one of the main reasons why they enter endurance motorsports is to develop the parts for the corvettes that will be sold to the public. If parts on the race cars are reliable and tough enough to withstand racing for hours on end, then you can almost guarantee that that technology will "trickle down" into road going cars. That trickle down effect is the reason why we have formula 1 cars this year that have a huge dependence on energy recovery systems.

Now i dont follow any sort of bicycle racing, but im assuming its the same. GT have been winning DH with the Athertons, so that will make GT look like a good bet when it comes to buying your first mountain bike be it DH or XC or whatever, because you will be thinking that the brand will have a strong racing pedigree. Even i know that GTs are crap value for money. I recently was asked to help someone out choosing a new hybrid. The GT was probably the worst value bike at the time, with loads of other brands having much higher spec parts on them. But to someone who doesnt know about the shimano hierachy, and what brands are better quality than others, they would just go "ooo GT. Buy."

welshkev

Angus Young wrote:

welshkev wrote:

but I guess I must be immune to the marketing hype

That's what everyone likes to think. I think everyone imagines that being susceptible to influence is, somehow, weak when, in fact, it's the most natural of human responses.

so why did I buy my cove stiffee? I have no ide if cove actually sponsor riders :?

I bought my specialized big hit when I was actually looking to get a scott voltage fr, but I found the big hit cheaper

and as for my nomad, I bought it off a friend as he happened to be selling it whilst I was looking to get a new bike and I was looking to buy a canyon

ali266

fielonator wrote:

You don't want a cheap dropper post, it's an important interface between your ars* and the bike, and needs to be reliable or you'll get fed up very quickly. Wider bars? Makes a hell of a difference. Also what's up with the rubber queens?

isnt a 2.4 rubber queen a bit overkill for the rear? or is it good to have big tires on a hardtail?
also the bike only has alex dp 17 rims, they are only 17mm wide, surely not wide enough to support 2.4 rubber queens?

fielonator

Sorry I'm not too sure about rim widths. I've got 2.4 nobby nicks on both my bikes and they're ok. A wider rim will spread the tire out a bit, and the larger volume means you can run them softer for better comfort and grip. I put a 2.4 rubber queen on the front if I'm going somewhere rocky, as it's got a stiffer sidewall than the nobby nick.

I got some superstar AM wheels last year, no problems so far. They were £130 for the pair and you can choose your axle size, hub and colour. They're quite wide but no overly heavy, and if I bust one I can replace it pretty cheap.

Angus Young

welshkev wrote:

so why did I buy my cove stiffee? I have no ide if cove actually sponsor riders :?

I bought my specialized big hit when I was actually looking to get a scott voltage fr, but I found the big hit cheaper

and as for my nomad, I bought it off a friend as he happened to be selling it whilst I was looking to get a new bike and I was looking to buy a canyon

Well done. But I guarantee you at some point in your life you bought something because someone persuaded you there was a better life waiting for you at the other end of the purchase. You'd be a quite extraordinary human being if you hadn't.

Chunkers1980

I may be wrong but what Kev was meaning was marketing relating to the biking world.

Angus Young

Chunkers1980 wrote:

I may be wrong but what Kev was meaning was marketing relating to the biking world.

Yes, he was. Just tackling the general notion that many people hold that they're immune to marketing.

welshkev

Angus Young wrote:

welshkev wrote:

so why did I buy my cove stiffee? I have no ide if cove actually sponsor riders :?

I bought my specialized big hit when I was actually looking to get a scott voltage fr, but I found the big hit cheaper

and as for my nomad, I bought it off a friend as he happened to be selling it whilst I was looking to get a new bike and I was looking to buy a canyon

Well done. But I guarantee you at some point in your life you bought something because someone persuaded you there was a better life waiting for you at the other end of the purchase. You'd be a quite extraordinary human being if you hadn't.

you are very probably right, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Angus Young wrote:

Chunkers1980 wrote:

I may be wrong but what Kev was meaning was marketing relating to the biking world.

Yes, he was. Just tackling the general notion that many people hold that they're immune to marketing.

and yes I was