Faster by Michael Hutchinson

specialgueststar

Simon E wrote:

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Dowsett (and Wiggins) and all the others are a different class - he's just a weightlifter

Congratulations, you win 'Blindingly obvious statement of the week'. Might scoop the 'Chip on shoulder' award too if you keep going. Or has someone held you at gunpoint and forced you to read it aloud?

I'd far rather read a book by Hutch than anything written by Dowsett or Wiggins. Or Cavendish, for that matter. None of them can write, they should stick to continental bike races. Despite using professional ghostwriters to do all the work Brad and Mark's books were still dire. Cav's first book was so bad it put me off even considering the second.

And if he's a good weightlifter at least he's not pretending he's a ballet dancer who wins at weightlifting too.[/quote]

eh?

RichN95.

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

he was guest speaker at our club dinner a few years back and IMO he came across as a tool, he said the reason he is so good is because he has a massive lung capacity, he saidthat he only trains 7 or 8 hours a week. Which left me thinking maybe if he trained a bit more he could make a proper living from cycling by being a pro road racer instead of a TTer in the UK.

But my main gripe with what he was saying that natural talent is the main limiter to how good you can be to a room full of aspiring kids isn't what you should be telling them, i think the message you would get from a speech from Matthew Syed would be much better

It's telling them the truth though. The idea that people can achieve anything if they work hard enough is just a myth.
The best thing to tell aspiring kids is not that they can be a champion, because usually they can't. It is to tell them to set their own goals, try hard and enjoy themselves.

Turfle

Yeah, that'd be the fault of the organiser. Can't expect Hutch to say things he doesn't believe. Maybe invite Syed next time instead.

fleshtuxedo

Matthew syed also thinks natural physical ability is a big factor in success in non skill based sports si dont invite him either. This proviso is written large in Bounce.

thegibdog

RichN95 wrote:

The idea that people can achieve anything if they work hard enough is just a myth.

Indeed, tends to be perpetuated by those who are successful themselves and like to think that it's all down to their own hard work. I suppose there is a kind of logic to this - they worked hard and achieved anything they set their mind to, so why can't others do the same? Usually though there's a big dollop of natural ability involved, along with a fair slice of luck and some favourable circumstances.

disgruntledgoat

thegibdog wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The idea that people can achieve anything if they work hard enough is just a myth.

Indeed, tends to be perpetuated by those who are successful themselves and like to think that it's all down to their own hard work. I suppose there is a kind of logic to this - they worked hard and achieved anything they set their mind to, so why can't others do the same? Usually though there's a big dollop of natural ability involved, along with a fair slice of luck and some favourable circumstances.

This book blew my mind on exactly that subjects http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell-ebook/dp/B002RI9PKO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396729273&sr=8-1&keywords=outliers

Yellow Peril

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

he was guest speaker at our club dinner a few years back and IMO he came across as a tool, he said the reason he is so good is because he has a massive lung capacity, he saidthat he only trains 7 or 8 hours a week. Which left me thinking maybe if he trained a bit more he could make a proper living from cycling by being a pro road racer instead of a TTer in the UK.

But my main gripe with what he was saying that natural talent is the main limiter to how good you can be to a room full of aspiring kids isn't what you should be telling them, i think the message you would get from a speech from Matthew Syed would be much better

It's a tough call. My eldest daughter is coming up 13 she has been club swimming since she was 4 and up until she was about 10 had a fair amount of club success. Now other kids who came to swimming later are kicking her ass and she is moving backwards down the rankings.

She's given swimming all she can and it isn't going to work out for her. she did a triathlon yesterday (last bastion of the averagely talented -like her dad!) and absolutely loved it. She can run a bit but the biggest surprise (and my shame) is how well she went on a borrowed droppy. Yesterday evening's talk revolved around a move toward this kind of activity and away from just swimming but it was her call.

I suppose that the point I'm making is that you have to be realistic with children's aspirations but at the same time they have to discover and realise their own limitations, you can't just give them the Dwane Johnson speech from the Tooth Fairy or capable kids will just bin sport after a poor performance.

frenchfighter

MiddleRinger wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

He didn't do great at all at the WC against pros - would like to read about his experiences of that one for an explanation.

It's in there. Lots of pondering on why the pros are faster than him.

What sort of things was he suggesting? Or was it a veiled doping accusation? Did he mention the possibility that they were all more gifted than he was?

thegibdog

From the Road.cc review:

For instance Hutchinson's VO2 max (the amount of oxygen he can use in a minute) is huge: 50% more than a good club rider. But as his rate of blood lactate build up is also high he could never translate that capacity for fuel use into horse power for long sustained effort at the higher pace needed to bring results amongst the world's very best.

http://road.cc/content/review/115653-fa ... t-cyclists

Sounds like an interesting read.

Macaloon

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

I collapsed unconscious into a pile of empty special brews

Exceptional pacing. You don't need no books.

frenchfighter

thegibdog wrote:

From the Road.cc review:

For instance Hutchinson's VO2 max (the amount of oxygen he can use in a minute) is huge: 50% more than a good club rider. But as his rate of blood lactate build up is also high he could never translate that capacity for fuel use into horse power for long sustained effort at the higher pace needed to bring results amongst the world's very best.

http://road.cc/content/review/115653-fa ... t-cyclists

Sounds like an interesting read.

Thanks but not sure I understand that explanation - how does that mean he can crush everything here then get beat by the pros? I suppose the only rational explanation is that he would get beaten over here as well. It always surprises me that people who can put out ridiculously good times in TTs here look good but nothing special in relation to EU pros.

specialgueststar

It is odd he could do a 45 m 46 secs for the 25 mile competition record in Sept 2012 - but then at the world champs he was 5.23 down on Tony Martin over a slightly longer distance. What would Martin do on that 25 mile course?

Could it be the type of courses - well check the profiles and the road types. Not on closed roads in UK of course - so traffic assisted. This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember. Not many true TT riders who do nothing on the road can compete against roadies who can time trial but they can do well on traffic assisted courses that start with a descent onto flat ground - ok so you're going to prove me wrong

Fair play to Hutchinson though - he has put things on hold so he could concentrate on dominating the domestic scene. Even his hour record which was never on - he was two minutes down at forty minutes and tiring rapidly - he had a go.


http://www.mapmyride.com/gb/glyn-neath-wls/ctt-r25-3l-route-4076424

WChttp://www.procyclingstats.com/race/UCI_TT_World_Championships_Men_2012-Race_Details

DeVlaeminck

RichN95 wrote:

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

he was guest speaker at our club dinner a few years back and IMO he came across as a tool, he said the reason he is so good is because he has a massive lung capacity, he saidthat he only trains 7 or 8 hours a week. Which left me thinking maybe if he trained a bit more he could make a proper living from cycling by being a pro road racer instead of a TTer in the UK.

But my main gripe with what he was saying that natural talent is the main limiter to how good you can be to a room full of aspiring kids isn't what you should be telling them, i think the message you would get from a speech from Matthew Syed would be much better

It's telling them the truth though. The idea that people can achieve anything if they work hard enough is just a myth.
The best thing to tell aspiring kids is not that they can be a champion, because usually they can't. It is to tell them to set their own goals, try hard and enjoy themselves.

Absolutely agree Rich. Youth sport is about fun, it is about achievement too but it shouldn't be all about a production line for elite sport which is the way it has been heading in the last decade. If you look at cycling, dragging young kids (under 12's, under 10s) up to Manchester because of the obsession with future Olympic medallists, for me it's lost track of what sport should be about.

Similar in football, my daughter plays for a team where three of them ( including her) chose to leave the FA academy structure because of the demands - in her case travelling 3 hours each way for half a 40 minute match at 9 years old. One of these 3 is such a natural athlete she is a huge loss to the local academy. I'm sure the same happens in other sports - talent is lost because too much is asked of them too young. Mine now plays county netball where he demands seem more commensurate with their age and whhere they actually encourage them to play other sports too.

Pross

No-one drags kids that age up to Manchester, don't exaggerate. The BC talent programme allows kids over 13 to be identified for regional talent teams and the RSR , the National Olympic programme starts at 16. BC Go Ride clubs provide coaching with a full emphasis on skills and enjoyment. It's a structured development programme not some communist state system.

cal_stewart

The Gap is massive between am and pro.

I'm hoping to do 10-15k this year working full time and binning my social life.

David Lopez posted 8.5k in March on Strava.

What I'm getting at is he still doesn't have the time of a WT pro to train and he doesn't have the support. It's a lot different having a fully paid support team sorting your life out.

DeVlaeminck

Pross wrote:

No-one drags kids that age up to Manchester, don't exaggerate. The BC talent programme allows kids over 13 to be identified for regional talent teams and the RSR , the National Olympic programme starts at 16. BC Go Ride clubs provide coaching with a full emphasis on skills and enjoyment. It's a structured development programme not some communist state system.

I'm talking about the cluster sessions - I don't know if you've ever attended one but I can assure you kids that age do get dragged up to Manchester for them. If you want to put a couple of hundred quid on your belief it doesn't happen I'll invite you to one and gladly take your money.

I can also tell you of kids winning local cross leagues who have been training daily without a day off, kids in tears at cross races and kids of about 12 travelling hundreds of miles to race. It's not at the level of swimming with its demands but for some kids its getting that way.

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pross wrote:

No-one drags kids that age up to Manchester, don't exaggerate. The BC talent programme allows kids over 13 to be identified for regional talent teams and the RSR , the National Olympic programme starts at 16. BC Go Ride clubs provide coaching with a full emphasis on skills and enjoyment. It's a structured development programme not some communist state system.

I'm talking about the cluster sessions - I don't know if you've ever attended one but I can assure you kids that age do get dragged up to Manchester for them. If you want to put a couple of hundred quid on your belief it doesn't happen I'll invite you to one and gladly take your money.

I can also tell you of kids winning local cross leagues who have been training daily without a day off, kids in tears at cross races and kids of about 12 travelling hundreds of miles to race. It's not at the level of swimming with its demands but for some kids its getting that way.

Parents and clubs may be putting that pressure on but it's not part of the BC process. One of the first things we got told on our coaching course was that it's all about skills and fun in the early years with no emphasis on fitness work. I certainly see kids being yelled at and put under pressure by parents and they are usually the ones who give up as soon as they are old enough to make decisions for themselves. I recently heard of a boy collapsing on a RSR and the coach got abuse of his parent for not allowing him back the next day, he was also told he would regret it as the boy would be on the start line at a race the following week and beat the others on the course. That's nothing to do with the coaching structure and I hope if he did turn up that it got reported under safeguarding rules.

DeVlaeminck

Yes I'm not necessarily blaming BC, apologies if my use of Manchester gave that impression it's just the closest velodrome to here, you are correct it's the parents dragging them up there. More a general point about the way youth sport is going. BC do have some safeguards against it, for example no under 12s at National Trophy cross races.

gsvbagpuss

Dragging this back on topic, I really enjoyed this book. I do need to re-read the sciencey chapter again but it's clear that things are much more subtle than VO2 max (certainly at elite athete level).

ddraver

*Standard Iain Post about The Sports Gene*

okgo

Bit harsh some of the stuff in here.

The bloke clearly could have had a career of sorts on the road as a domestique at the very least (400w FTP is pro level). But he chose to make a crust this way, I don't doubt he does alright for himself, doesn't have to flog his guts and still is usually top of the pile. And he's been at the top of that for years.

You say '5 min down on Martin' like it's a bad thing, I could tell you the names of many Uk pro's who would be nearly 5 mins down on Hutch over a 25, does that mean they should jack it all in?

His first book was great, and I look forward to reading this one.

PuttyKnees

Back off topic. The track cluster sessions are one of the few opportunities for young kids (i.e., <14) to be coached in a safe environment for track. It's all skills development. Learn how to ride on the track, learn how to safely ride in a group, learn how to change and so on. It's an excellent opportunity and the kids love it. It's hardly dragging kids around the country - they only occur every 2 or 3 months.

The idea that kids travelling to races are somehow being dragged around by parents doesn't bear scrutiny and it's generally the other way round. BC are generally good at rider responsibility and decision making, and they are not at all pushing training at lower age groups, quite the opposite. I do think that they select for their programmes too young though, which does encourage riders to train too hard too early when research shows that many riders mature later, at which point they have no chance of talent programme support and are out of the system.

Malcolm Gladwell's thesis is quite the opposite to the Sports Gene. He claims that you need sufficiently good genetics, but beyond that working on skills pertinent to the sport are the key to growth. Genetics can set a cap, but many other aspects of your life can influence outcomes in sport and so should not be considered the primary limiter.

DeVlaeminck

PuttyKnees wrote:

Back off topic. The track cluster sessions are one of the few opportunities for young kids (i.e., <14) to be coached in a safe environment for track. It's all skills development. Learn how to ride on the track, learn how to safely ride in a group, learn how to change and so on. It's an excellent opportunity and the kids love it. It's hardly dragging kids around the country - they only occur every 2 or 3 months.

The idea that kids travelling to races are somehow being dragged around by parents doesn't bear scrutiny and it's generally the other way round. BC are generally good at rider responsibility and decision making, and they are not at all pushing training at lower age groups, quite the opposite. I do think that they select for their programmes too young though, which does encourage riders to train too hard too early when research shows that many riders mature later, at which point they have no chance of talent programme support and are out of the system.

Malcolm Gladwell's thesis is quite the opposite to the Sports Gene. He claims that you need sufficiently good genetics, but beyond that working on skills pertinent to the sport are the key to growth. Genetics can set a cap, but many other aspects of your life can influence outcomes in sport and so should not be considered the primary limiter.

It's one thing at 13/14 another with 8-9 year olds. Some kids do love it but I've seen plenty where they'd be happier going on a family ride with their parents. I'm not picking on BC or cycling, just making the point that there is a trend towards greater parental involvement in kids sporting "careers" and viewing it as a pathway to elite sport rather. Would not young kids be just as well on the park doing some cyclocross or going MTBing in the woods locally as trekking to Manchester.

Another example came up the other day, my elder bro told me of a local football coach who advertises his "academy" as giving kids the best chance of being signed by a professional team, kids switching team most seasons because the parents think another team will further their progression more.

PuttyKnees

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's one thing at 13/14 another with 8-9 year olds. Some kids do love it but I've seen plenty where they'd be happier going on a family ride with their parents. I'm not picking on BC or cycling, just making the point that there is a trend towards greater parental involvement in kids sporting "careers" and viewing it as a pathway to elite sport rather. Would not young kids be just as well on the park doing some cyclocross or going MTBing in the woods locally as trekking to Manchester.

Another example came up the other day, my elder bro told me of a local football coach who advertises his "academy" as giving kids the best chance of being signed by a professional team, kids switching team most seasons because the parents think another team will further their progression more.

Yes, I don't doubt there are parents and coaches who are working on flawed principals. It's pretty sad. Even when done right, I personally wonder whether the emphasis on talent id is healthy for young kids or the sport in general.

Maybe the kids would enjoy mtb and cx in the local woods. Perhaps they do that anyway. Infrequent trips to Manchester can be quite fun. I recently took my daughter to go on the supercross track there. We had a blast on the MTB skills area, did some bmx, generally had a great time with friends. I guess you could say - why not go to the local pump track/bmx track? Well we do, but going to the cycling centre was a great fun day out and she came back buzzing. Same for track. Would I want to do that weekly? Hell, no.

mroli

Back on topic - I'm enjoying it. Hutchinson basically seems to have examined every avenue at how he can get quicker and faster, adopted every fad, trained in every way possible, but has the ultimate limitation of his body. And a particular part of his body too. Reading the nutrition section too - interesting stuff - when Contador submitted his list of supplements to the UCI for his doping hearing, there were 27 supplements on that list. Keeping track of all of those must be a nightmare - I struggle with my hay fever meds (1 pill twice a day!)

Richmond Racer

mroli wrote:

Back on topic - I'm enjoying it. Hutchinson basically seems to have examined every avenue at how he can get quicker and faster, adopted every fad, trained in every way possible, but has the ultimate limitation of his body. And a particular part of his body too. Reading the nutrition section too - interesting stuff - when Contador submitted his list of supplements to the UCI for his doping hearing, there were 27 supplements on that list. Keeping track of all of those must be a nightmare - I struggle with my hay fever meds (1 pill twice a day!)

27! What the...?

When Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell tested positive, turned out they were both taking a suitcase-full of supplements on a daily and otherwise regular basis. 18 supplements per day for at least one of them, IIRC.

There's no need. Simply no need.

Pross

mroli wrote:

Keeping track of all of those must be a nightmare - I struggle with my hay fever meds (1 pill twice a day!)

I knew you didn't do those 100 hills on bread and water!

okgo

I have got the book coming today, will post thoughts on it.

mroli

Richmond Racer wrote:

27! What the...?

When Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell tested positive, turned out they were both taking a suitcase-full of supplements on a daily and otherwise regular basis. 18 supplements per day for at least one of them, IIRC.

There's no need. Simply no need.

Just re=read it - it was CAS and 27 Supplements in "regular" use. Hutch is clear that all athletes use supplements: "almost every athlete I've ever discussed it with uses supplements of some kind or another".

Thinking about it - I had High 5 electrolyte tabs and drinks at the weekend - with hay fever drops, nasal spray and anti-histamines, I'm up to 5 without even thinking about it...

Hutch interesting on nutrition - esp on Sky's thinking on marginal gains through nutrition and keeping a healthy "gut"....

graeme_s-2

Cal_Stewart wrote:

The Gap is massive between am and pro.

This was my biggest take away from Rough Ride. Kimmage writes about having a stonking amateur season where he dominates the Irish scene (admittedly not the same as dominating the amateur scene in a big European cycling nation) before turning pro and being absolutely blown away.

Fancy reading Faster. The Hour is my favourite cycling book by a long way.