Segregated cycle lanes rear their ugly head again...

menthel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26843361

Seriously, I want to use the road. The segregated lanes we have are rubbish and often full of peds and street furniture. I am getting kind of sick of these groups with their own special agendas claiming that they are doing this for us. Bleh. Rant over.

mattsaw

+ 1

I'll only use a segregated route is it's as safe, convenient and as fast as the road. Sadly that just isn't possible to achieve in most places.

(However)

Most of us are pretty comfortable and experienced on the roads, I can see segregated routes encouraging younger and less confident people to ride, which is great, but I know that would also come with an expectation from a lot of drivers that ALL cyclists should be off of the roads.

slowbike

menthel wrote:

Seriously, I want to use the road. The segregated lanes we have are rubbish and often full of peds and street furniture. I am getting kind of sick of these groups with their own special agendas claiming that they are doing this for us. Bleh. Rant over.

Mixed views - I agree that segregated lanes or worse - mixed use paths are usually terrible - both in state of repair and the amount of obstacles found in them.
But I can't help wondering if I would prefer to ride in a cycle only lane if it were suitable. I think I would use a cycle lane on my rural commute if it were available without convoluted direction changes - but I would also like to retain the right to ride the road routes to give options for alternative routes and that needs the respect and understanding from motor vehicle users that I have every right to be there.

Unfortunately what we get is "there's a cycle path. you should be on that" - even if the cyclepath is clearly unsuitable for the speed I'm travelling at. For that reason I would rather the council didn't implement more (badly) painted sections of the road or shared use paths alongside a perfectly suitable road (alongside the dual carriageway is fine)

davis

I was out with t'boy yesterday (almost 7, and not quite ready for the full-on road at the moment) on segregated paths. Where they're done well, they're actually fine for bimbling along with a kid, at times great. They're not so great for "I want to get there quickly".

The trouble is they're so infrequently done even acceptably that it's better to just say "we want to be on the road" because "treat us like cars" is easier to explain to council-types.

slowbike

I've found that riding on the road with a 7yo tends to give you more room from passing traffic - nobody wants to hurt a child ...

cyclingprop

A UEL sabattical (eco nut), and an ex-communicated lib-dem eco nut.

Sigh. Who empowered them to demand on my behalf?

markhewitt1978

As ever the problems that UK cyclists have with 'cycle paths' is indeed that they are narrow, badly maintained, full of obstacles and road furniture, frequent give ways, full of pedestrians.

But; that's not an intrinsic problem with cycle paths, it's a problem with the way we build them in the UK. Taking a look at Holland it doesn't have to be that way, they have a large network of routes which are wide and bicycles have priority.

Personally while I'm a road cyclist I use shared use paths from time to time when it would otherwise mean riding along a busy road, I only ever ride for fun and riding in heavy fast traffic is not fun.

davis

Slowbike wrote:

I've found that riding on the road with a 7yo tends to give you more room from passing traffic - nobody wants to hurt a child ...

Oh, yeah, they do... but he still can't keep in a straight line while changing gear, or always be trusted to avoid parked cars. It's really not the overtaking traffic I'm worried about!

lancew

I agree pretty much with whats going on in this conversation.

As far as I'm concerned, if cycle paths offer a better quality option then I will take them, but generally I find that those lanes are just an excuse for people to get in my way because they don't treat them like real roads. On Friday I'm taking some friends (inc my Dad) on a ride from Dover to Ramsgate and we will be going down the beachfront on the cycle paths and I can guarantee that I will (as the last two times) be shouting at people to get out of my way; politely of course.

drlodge

Lancew wrote:

I agree pretty much with whats going on in this conversation.

As far as I'm concerned, if cycle paths offer a better quality option then I will take them, but generally I find that those lanes are just an excuse for people to get in my way because they don't treat them like real roads. On Friday I'm taking some friends (inc my Dad) on a ride from Dover to Ramsgate and we will be going down the beachfront on the cycle paths and I can guarantee that I will (as the last two times) be shouting at people to get out of my way; politely of course.

+1 I've fitted a bell to my CX bike so when I'm going along a path that is used by cyclists and pedestrians, I can ping my bell to make them aware of my presence.

In general I don't use dedicated cycle paths. The exceptions are the cycle lanes at the side of road - exactly the place I'd be cycling anyway.

slowbike

davis wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I've found that riding on the road with a 7yo tends to give you more room from passing traffic - nobody wants to hurt a child ...

Oh, yeah, they do... but he still can't keep in a straight line while changing gear, or always be trusted to avoid parked cars. It's really not the overtaking traffic I'm worried about!

Does depend where you are - I wouldn't take them on a busy road - they can ride on the pavement (me generally on the road next to them) - but the quieter ones are usually fine - and around where we ride there aren't the parked cars to worry about ... plenty of trees/bushes/other natural hazards though

jamesco

The posts here are a good illustration of the state of cycling in the UK - it's largely the preserve of fit, fast & young(ish) males who are confident enough to mix it with traffic. Overall participation rates are low and miserably low for females.

The best way to get higher participation is to change the perception of safety. Whether or not you want segregated lanes for yourself, the fact is that being separated from cars, vans, buses and HGVs make cycling a lot less intimidating for those with less confidence. I'm quite happy to see a utilitarian approach to cycling - my inconvenience of going around pootlers would be far outweighed by the benefits of more people on bikes.

Keep in mind that a segregated path for cyclists isn't necessarily just a lane, it could be the whole road; there isn't enough space on the narrow roads in London to have separated lanes everywhere, but there are plenty of quiet roads that could be made cycle (& pedestrian) only, if the will was there...

slowbike

drlodge wrote:

In general I don't use dedicated cycle paths. The exceptions are the cycle lanes at the side of road - exactly the place I'd be cycling anyway.

You're lucky - a bit further south were we have the painted cycle lanes they're usually a tad too narrow, contain sunken drains, sporadic islands which narrow the lane even further and when the road itself narrows the cyclepath disappears. On these roads I find myself on the right hand side of the cycle lane and having checked behind, pulling out early to anticipate the pinch points.

Putting us in segregated lanes that have these features seems to mean that drivers ignore us until we suddenly appear in the road - hence their apparent eagerness to overtake us at the pinch points


Why oh why when I type pinch points do I always miscue and type punch points ... hmmm ...

notsoblue

In Central London, as long as there are HGVs on the road, the best way to improve cycle safety is segregation. Though it has to be done right. imho.

monkimark

I don't especially care about segregated cycle paths one way or the other - I'm (just) fast enough and confident enough to mix with the other traffic on most roads in London.But then I'm not the target audience - segregated routes are needed to make cycling as transport a reasonable and safe option for a wider range of people.

My wife for example enjoys cycling but is not especially confident on anything other than quiet roads and is happy to bimble along at 10mph. Before she went on maternity leave she was working about 2 or 3 miles from our house in South London and would have liked to cycle to work (probably only in fair weather) but was put off by traffic, the fact that the entire route is along the CS7 is no help as it's no more than a strip of blue paint. If there was a segregated route available then she could have got to work quickly and cheaply as well as freeing up space on public transport and getting some excercise.

If the cost of getting safe cycling transport for kids, less experienced cyclists etc is that occasionally someone thinks I should be riding in a seperate path then that seems like a price worth paying to me.

The only segregated route I ever really ride in London in the C3 cycle route from waterloo to clapham, it's not all segregated but it's actually not bad - it takes you down quiet roads and there are segregated contraflow cycle lanes down one way streets. If I desperately want to knock 3 minutes off my 25 minute commute then I can take the A3 and fight it out with cars, vans and buses so I don't see any reason to oppose it.

Crouching Peeky

notsoblue wrote:

In Central London, as long as there are HGVs on the road, the best way to improve cycle safety is segregation. Though it has to be done right. imho.

This!

bompington

Was out last Saturday on one of the few segregated paths round here (Dundee's greenway path along riverside, for locals). Came up behind 3 ladies out for a walk: given that they were at least out getting exercise it would be unkind to mention that they were entirely occupying a quite broad path.
50m away I call out "excuse me". No movement.
30m: "EXCUSE ME". Still no action.
15m: "EXXXX CUUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEEEEEE!". Carry on regardless.
I went past on the grass, quite slowly by now. Cue shouting, jumping, that funny little running on the spot thing some people do when they're startled. Followed by a volley of abuse ringing in my ears as I rode on.

Later on, I had opted to ride on the road from St Andrews rather than the cycle path - it's actually a very good fast path but still suffers, like most, from having to slow down at chicanes, side turnings etc. I was doing about 30 as the wind was quite strong behind me, that's about as fast as a lot of the locals drive anyway, and I lost count of the number of agitated drivers gesticulating at me to get on the cycle path.

It's all a long way from the Netherlands.

slowbike

monkimark wrote:

I'm not the target audience - segregated routes are needed to make cycling as transport a reasonable and safe option for a wider range of people.

My wife for example enjoys cycling but is not especially confident on anything other than quiet roads and is happy to bimble along at 10mph. Before she went on maternity leave she was working about 2 or 3 miles from our house in South London and would have liked to cycle to work (probably only in fair weather) but was put off by traffic, the fact that the entire route is along the CS7 is no help as it's no more than a strip of blue paint. If there was a segregated route available then she could have got to work quickly and cheaply as well as freeing up space on public transport and getting some excercise.

Isn't this an argument for safer driving and more tolerance on the road in general?
If your wife is intimidated by traffic then if that traffic didn't pass closely, rev engines and all the other silly things they do then she wouldn't be intimidated and could cycle where she liked.

So rather than fix the symptom we should fix the problem ...

roger_merriman

only richmond coucil area but worth finding out what the darlings intend on our behalf.

I have soften to the idea of Segregated lanes as long as done well, central London has big open roads where one could arguably make it work out round here with a few exceptions the roads are narrow so the options are less.

at the moment I ride on shared paths/quiet road. since i'm slow and nervous now.

markhewitt1978

notsoblue wrote:

In Central London, as long as there are HGVs on the road, the best way to improve cycle safety is segregation. Though it has to be done right. imho.

Most of the country is not central London, just sayin'.

markhewitt1978

bompington wrote:

50m away I call out "excuse me". No movement.
30m: "EXCUSE ME". Still no action.
15m: "EXXXX CUUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEEEEEE!". Carry on regardless.
I went past on the grass, quite slowly by now. Cue shouting, jumping, that funny little running on the spot thing some people do when they're startled. Followed by a volley of abuse ringing in my ears as I rode on.

Have to say I've experienced almost exactly the same thing when on a shared use path. They first started saying I should be on the road, then claimed I should be on the 'other side', then accused me of being rude.

cookeeemonster

I want segregated paths DONE PROPERLY TO DUTCH STANDARDS because I'm not selfish and want other people (including my children in a few years) to be able to cycle safely...anywhere.

For the millionth time on these forums in the 2 years I've been a member people delibrately wind themselves up over this issue - the cycle campaign groups are not asking for the s**t painted lines or shared use paths we all hate - they are asking for proper lanes - and they can be done to dutch standards and be fast - if the will is there if people put enough pressure on.

No one will be forced off the road except private motor traffic - we need to take space away from cars like during the olympic period for this to work properly...this will lead to less traffic (only those who need to be on the road will be - look at dutch cities and so on) and a better environment for all.

Will take decades so nobody need worry about being forced off the road just yet...even though you wont be anyway.

roger_merriman

markhewitt1978 wrote:

bompington wrote:

50m away I call out "excuse me". No movement.
30m: "EXCUSE ME". Still no action.
15m: "EXXXX CUUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEEEEEE!". Carry on regardless.
I went past on the grass, quite slowly by now. Cue shouting, jumping, that funny little running on the spot thing some people do when they're startled. Followed by a volley of abuse ringing in my ears as I rode on.

Have to say I've experienced almost exactly the same thing when on a shared use path. They first started saying I should be on the road, then claimed I should be on the 'other side', then accused me of being rude.

people do switch off at times, few years back was a bunch off walkers collected on on of the shared paths in Bushy so I slowed and stopped, and waited for them to move/notice one lady just set off into front wheel much to her friends amusement, who pointed out she may need new glasses if she couldn't spot a 6ft man in broad daylight barely a foot infront of her.

notsoblue

markhewitt1978 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

In Central London, as long as there are HGVs on the road, the best way to improve cycle safety is segregation. Though it has to be done right. imho.

Most of the country is not central London, just sayin'.

Well the article isn't about most of the country, is it?

monkimark

Slowbike wrote:

Isn't this an argument for safer driving and more tolerance on the road in general?
If your wife is intimidated by traffic then if that traffic didn't pass closely, rev engines and all the other silly things they do then she wouldn't be intimidated and could cycle where she liked.

So rather than fix the symptom we should fix the problem ...

True, but what's more likely to succeed - asking people to drive carefuly around cyclists in London or physically preventing them from getting close enough to cause harm? Fixing the problem is all but impossible without a massively increased police presence on the roads operating a zero tolerance blitz on bad driving on a daily basis.

slowbike

Whilst it might succeed for the areas implemented it will not help the areas it isn't - so some driver education is still required

apreading

Slowbike wrote:

drlodge wrote:

In general I don't use dedicated cycle paths. The exceptions are the cycle lanes at the side of road - exactly the place I'd be cycling anyway.

You're lucky - a bit further south were we have the painted cycle lanes they're usually a tad too narrow, contain sunken drains, sporadic islands which narrow the lane even further and when the road itself narrows the cyclepath disappears. On these roads I find myself on the right hand side of the cycle lane and having checked behind, pulling out early to anticipate the pinch points.

Putting us in segregated lanes that have these features seems to mean that drivers ignore us until we suddenly appear in the road - hence their apparent eagerness to overtake us at the pinch points


Why oh why when I type pinch points do I always miscue and type punch points ... hmmm ...

+1000

Plus they are full of potholes, broken glass and other detritus - with the drains etc it is either an uncomfortable ride or swerve into the traffic constantly and whenever I ride in them I get punctures. So like you I ride just outside them and will continue to do so unless they are wider or better condition.

iPete

CS8 is a great 'cycle lane' wide, smooth, super fast and not segregated but OK it was easy to implement.

Then in light of the current pollution levels and failing 2020 air quality targets, there needs to be bold action. Basically do what they did on CS8, take away more car lanes and simultaneously relax delivery times on large vehicles to reduce rush hour congestion. Apply this to major tourist spots, hell pedestrianise Piccadilly circus, take away road lanes on The Mall, constitution hill etc.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are not a cabbie, trader or disabled, driving to work in Z1-3 should be heavily penalised.

lancew

I would like to see the lanes look like this:



That way people don't park in them, walkers don't walk in them and cyclists have room to overtake and effectively have a "fast lane", but can still get onto the road if they need to.

I must point out though that these would only really be required on the main roads like the ring roads around London, or the A roads along Bromley Common.

*I am aware that some idiots will still try and park in these lanes, but some things just can't be helped.

markhewitt1978

The important thing is there is that it's a decent width. You rarely see cycle lanes that wide, even without the curbs inbetween.

veronese68

As others have said it's not all about us. I would love to see decent segregated cycle lanes so my wife and daughter would cycle more.