Left - Right bias

Schoie81

Hi,

I seem to favour my right hand side (i am right handed), not it terms of pedalling (although I probably do) but in terms of balance. To be honest, my balance on the bike isn't the best (any tips on how to improve it would be greatly appreciated?) and it leaves me a little short of confidence, especially when cornering. I've decided to try and improve my cornering as I've recently ended up following cyclists in my car when its been too narrow to pass safely and found myself watching how they were doing it. Left hand corners I don't worry too much about, right foot at the bottom, left foot at the top feels natural, but on right hand corners with my left foot down low and my right foot at the top I feel nervous and end up slowing right down for them. I'm ultimately looking to be more confident on the bike and improve my descending - I'm no expert climber, but I'd rather go uphill than downhill! I'm upgrading my brakes which will hopefully give me more confidence that they'll stop me when I need them to, so hoping that will help too.

Is this feeling normal or am I just weird? And does anyone know how I can stop it!?!

jds_1981

Practise is probably your only option. Not road, but on pump tracks I'm better at turning right than left (I'm left handed.)
I think it's just one of those things, like goofy,regular stnace in skateboarding. You've got a natural preference.

larkim

I'm glad its not just me! I find the left foot down / right foot up for a right hander feels unnatural, though by the same token trail braking (slight braking whilst going through the corner) whilst turning right feels easier as it is left hand pulling the lever.

If I'm going around a right hander at any decent speed I have to consciously tell myself to get the left foot down so that I don't risk clipping the pedal on the floor or on the kerb.

lostboysaint

jds_1981 wrote:

Practise is probably your only option. Not road, but on pump tracks I'm better at turning right than left (I'm left handed.)
I think it's just one of those things, like goofy,regular stnace in skateboarding. You've got a natural preference.

That.

The body has a whole load of inbuilt preference: handedness, stance (goofy or regular), direction of turn (jump up and turn around and see which way you go) etc. So you will always have strengths in a particular direction until more practice/repetition sees the differences diminish.

Schoie81

So you're saying I just need to ride more!?! Oh well, its as good an excuse as any! Maybe I should find a roundabout and just ride around it over and over again!!

Its at least a comfort to know I'm not the only one!

lostboysaint

In practical terms yes. Unless you skate (ice, roller or blade) or ski frequently, in which case the cornering set up of cycling is similar to weighting the outside ski/skate as you turn, so practice can be had on those.

Schoie81

lostboysaint wrote:

In practical terms yes. Unless you skate (ice, roller or blade) or ski frequently, in which case the cornering set up of cycling is similar to weighting the outside ski/skate as you turn, so practice can be had on those.

Maybe that explains why skating and skiing are right at the bottom of the list of hobbies I'm keen to take up.... More than happy to just ride, ride and ride some more until I get used to it!

6wheels

If you do a 'Google', you'll find it is more natural to turn to the left when speed is involved. That's why speedway, horses, dogs and cars on oval circuits are nearly always anti-clockwise.

Initialised

This video explains it from an MTB perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5_eP2ZD08I right foot down on a left turn keeps your centre of gravity and inertia in the right place (in line with the wheels) and increases traction so you can go faster before the wheel slips.

Their series on footwork is very informative.

Find an empty road or track you can practice 'carving' on keep it in mind next time your on a twisty descent.

rolf_f

The explanation might be simpler than you think. On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip. You absolutely should feel more confident on left handers. I bet if you did a survey of all the UK riders on here of how many times they've mashed which hip on the tarmac you'll find that loads have entirely scar free left hips but right hips that have been gouged across the tarmac on numerous occasions.

Initialised

Rolf F wrote:

The explanation might be simpler than you think. On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip. You absolutely should feel more confident on left handers. I bet if you did a survey of all the UK riders on here of how many times they've mashed which hip on the tarmac you'll find that loads have entirely scar free left hips but right hips that have been gouged across the tarmac on numerous occasions.

So is this opposite in countries where they drive on the wrong side of the road?

rolf_f

Initialised wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The explanation might be simpler than you think. On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip. You absolutely should feel more confident on left handers. I bet if you did a survey of all the UK riders on here of how many times they've mashed which hip on the tarmac you'll find that loads have entirely scar free left hips but right hips that have been gouged across the tarmac on numerous occasions.

So is this opposite in countries where they drive on the wrong side of the road?

That would be consistent with my theory! Except in the States where they don't have roads with curves!

FatTed

This may help, its about descending around bends, the whole website has useful tips
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

pdstsp

FatTed wrote:

This may help, its about descending around bends, the whole website has useful tips
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

+1 - read this a few years ago before a holiday in the alps and it made a huge impact on my descending - particularly the bit about keeping your head up and looking as far ahead of you as possible. It has made a massive difference to my descending and cornering speeds.

Schoie81

Thanks for the links - will take a look at lunchtime!

slowbike

pdstsp wrote:

FatTed wrote:

This may help, its about descending around bends, the whole website has useful tips
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

+1 - read this a few years ago before a holiday in the alps and it made a huge impact on my descending - particularly the bit about keeping your head up and looking as far ahead of you as possible. It has made a massive difference to my descending and cornering speeds.

I think is good advice for all methods of road transport all the time - too many ppl just look at the few feet in front of their vehicle and are then surprised by what they hit ...

andrewjoseph

Rolf F wrote:

The explanation might be simpler than you think. On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip. You absolutely should feel more confident on left handers. I bet if you did a survey of all the UK riders on here of how many times they've mashed which hip on the tarmac you'll find that loads have entirely scar free left hips but right hips that have been gouged across the tarmac on numerous occasions.

This would depend on how the road is built and also in which direction you are going.

From what I've seen the frequency is the same.

To the OP, practice on a flat grassy field, trying to turn tighter and tighter.

Also, when going more than about 10-15 mph, you don't steer the bike , you countersteer and lean/ weight the bike.

I tend to lean the bike and keep my body as close to vertical as I can

pdstsp

Slowbike wrote:

pdstsp wrote:

FatTed wrote:

This may help, its about descending around bends, the whole website has useful tips
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

+1 - read this a few years ago before a holiday in the alps and it made a huge impact on my descending - particularly the bit about keeping your head up and looking as far ahead of you as possible. It has made a massive difference to my descending and cornering speeds.

I think is good advice for all methods of road transport all the time - too many ppl just look at the few feet in front of their vehicle and are then surprised by what they hit ...

Yeah - I think the point in the flamme rouge piece is that if you are going into a hairpin on a fast desent and looking at the low wall on the outside of the turn then you tend to automatically steer towards it in some inevitability thing!

Schoie81

pdstsp wrote:

Yeah - I think the point in the flamme rouge piece is that if you are going into a hairpin on a fast desent and looking at the low wall on the outside of the turn then you tend to automatically steer towards it in some inevitability thing!

I believe that's called 'target fixation' - works with potholes too, stare at the damn thing thinking 'I must go around that' and you'll hit it.

rolf_f

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The explanation might be simpler than you think. On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip. You absolutely should feel more confident on left handers. I bet if you did a survey of all the UK riders on here of how many times they've mashed which hip on the tarmac you'll find that loads have entirely scar free left hips but right hips that have been gouged across the tarmac on numerous occasions.

This would depend on how the road is built and also in which direction you are going.

No it doesn't - as long as it has a camber, it makes no difference which direction you are going - the off camber will always be on right hand bends if you are riding on the left.

And even at low speeds you are effectively counter-steering. If you don't, you'll fall off!

Schoie81 wrote:

pdstsp wrote:

Yeah - I think the point in the flamme rouge piece is that if you are going into a hairpin on a fast desent and looking at the low wall on the outside of the turn then you tend to automatically steer towards it in some inevitability thing!

I believe that's called 'target fixation' - works with potholes too, stare at the damn thing thinking 'I must go around that' and you'll hit it.

I did this in the Alps with the outside of a bend over a steep drop at speed! I did stop in time but I learned the less. After that, I looked at the inside exit of the hairpins, even when that was almost over my shoulder, and my bike was drawn to that point like voodoo magic. It was a bit surreal but great fun!

andrewjoseph

Rolf, the camber of a road depends on how it is built, not which direction you are traveling.

There are plenty of roads around me that have positive camber on the left. I.e. outside of bend higher than inside. Or neutral camber even.

I take your point about direction you travel.

Slow speed countersteering, depends on what you call slow. as far as i am aware, and in my experience, if you have to turn the bars in the direction you want to go, you are not countersteering. If you try countersteering at walking pace, which i often do on my mtb, you'll be off the track.

rolf_f

andrewjoseph wrote:

Rolf, the camber of a road depends on how it is built, not which direction you are traveling.

There are plenty of roads around me that have positive camber on the left. I.e. outside of bend higher than inside. Or neutral camber even.

Can't recall having seen many around here (though I'm sure they exist). Surely you aren't saying that, no matter how common roads are with a positive camber on the left are, that they are anything other than a small minority of the total? Most roads do drain to the outer edges IME and my comment is based on that generalisation. I can't speak for others but every time I've had an off I have come down on the side away from the slope of the camber (and that's why I've always come down on my right side). Now, if you are a really good rider, yes, it shouldn't make any difference which way the corner points because you will adjust your speed accordingly. But I'd be prepared to bet that most people corner more slowly round left handers than they need to and faster round right handers than they should do. ie they underestimate the benefits of the camber on the left handers and under-estimate the negatives on the right. The difference in angle between the wheel and the tarmac can be significantly different between the two.

andrewjoseph wrote:

Slow speed countersteering, depends on what you call slow. as far as i am aware, and in my experience, if you have to turn the bars in the direction you want to go, you are not countersteering. If you try countersteering at walking pace, which i often do on my mtb, you'll be off the track.

I think you are always turning the bars in the direction you want to go at pretty much any speed. What you are doing (I think!) - whether conscious of it or not - is leaning into the direction of the turn and turning the bars into that direction but less than you need to to track the bike on that radius if you see what I mean). Might be completely wrong but I don't think my bars end up actually pointing eg to the left of the axis of the bike when I want to turn right. My instinct is that I lean in and let the bars follow behind - and that lag is the countersteering (obviously not the same thing as countersteering on a car). Arguably though it is just a case of semantics - ie whether your more precise definition of the term is strictly correct or not - the only difference is how you are inducing the lean in the first place.

I'd say MTB work is different because there the roughness of the surface comes into play and you are shifting your weight all over the place all the time. On the road, even at a slow speed, if you try to turn without letting your body fall into the direction of the turn, you'll topple over on the outside.

larkim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Was all news to me. But essentially says that no matter how slowly you're going, you can't turn left without turning the wheel a tiny weeny bit right first.

andrewjoseph

Rolf, in an earlier post you said:

On left handers, the camber of the road is acting as a banking and increasing your grip. On a right hander, the camber is adverse - angled away from you reducing your grip.

i said it all depends on how the road is built. you said:

Can't recall having seen many around here (though I'm sure they exist)

so you seem to have changed your emphasis somewhat.

I haven't counted them, but there are several positive camber right hand bends around me.

as it happens, i am much happier turning to the left, and have to concentrate more turning to the right. my wife is opposite. I am right handed and right footed. my wife is right handed and left footed, as is my brother, and he too finds turning to the right easier. i don't know what this means but i know several cyclists who have more trouble turning left than right.

off road trails are not drained (apart from man made) and the camber is all over the place, but i still find it easier to turn left even on a negative camber turn. this is true for me on tarmac. The opposite is true for many riders i know. I think it is down to innate preferences.

So I believe your positive left hand camber making left turn easier theory is incorrect.

larkim, it may be true that any turns are initiated by a slight opposite movement, but in a long fast the countersteer is innitiated and the bike leans, then the wheel/bars are are held in a countersteer. when you know what you are doing this is a deliberate act.

to practice my turns (especially to the right), i put a marker on the ground and try to ride in circles as tight as i can to that marker. if i lean into the turn i cannot make it tight. i do this on the road bike on tarmac or on my mtb. so countersteer may initiate the turn, but it is not held during the turn. I am steering with the wheel at many degrees from the line of the frame in the direction i want to turn.

crankycrank

pdstsp wrote:

FatTed wrote:

This may help, its about descending around bends, the whole website has useful tips
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

+1 - read this a few years ago before a holiday in the alps and it made a huge impact on my descending - particularly the bit about keeping your head up and looking as far ahead of you as possible. It has made a massive difference to my descending and cornering speeds.

+2 This can be a bit unnerving at first and you want to check the road directly in front of you briefly for bumps and objects but the technique will almost pull you through the turn. It really clicked when it was explained to me to "look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go". This also helps tremendously when you're trying to avoid some hazard in the road such as rubbish that's blowing unpredictably across your path. Make yourself aware of the object then look ahead to where you want to go and almost always you end up missing the object and with no drama. Try to remember to practice this everytime you go out so that it becomes instinctive.