Lifetime warranty on CF frame, what's covered?

Anvar.p25

I'll start from beginning and will do my best to keep it short.

On morning ride of 11/03/14 I took my best bike out(as it finally stopped raining), it's eddy Merckx carbon bike, bike came with lifetime warranty. 45 minutes in to my session to my huge disappointment I was to suddenly stop because I couldn't pedal due to some obstacle in crank arms way. It was a bolt which had come off the chainring which holds it on to crank arm(by the way it's campagnolo centaur group set) please see attached pic of damage. The bolt stuck between (bottom part) chain stay and crank arm and damaged the frame.

I purchased the bike on 27/09/13 and rode it maybe 10-15 times covering 300 miles tops hoping to do more in spring and summer, in meantime I was using my winter bike for training.

The bolt coming loose, falling out and the subsequent damage that it has
caused was absolutely outwith my control and as such I believe I should be
able to have the damage repaired under the warranty .

So I contacted the online store I have purchased my beloved "tricycle"(winstanleybikes.com on 17/03/14) and asked to make a claim on my behalf as the manufacturer insisted WB.COM to deal with it on my behalf. I gave all the details, provided them with as many pictures as required by EMC(eddy Merckx cycles) as well as the original purchase invoice and bike passport and finally written instructions I received from manufacturer.

I was calling and chasing the case up on daily basis. On 26/03 I've learnt that even WB.com after all my instructions haven't followed them and emailed the claim to the wrong email address. I asked them to fix it and escalate it to right place.

I found Winstaleysbikes.co.uk being very inadequate, unhelpful and unprofessional. Obviously this experience thought me of using lbs instead of paying 200 less.

Today, after chasing both parties I've learnt that manufacturer declined my claim. I'm absolutely disappointed and still believe that the damage caused out with my control should be covered by Lifitime warranty.

Could you please advise what can I do further to have this problem solved please

gethinceri

Suggest to both that you will be taking the claim to Small Claims Court?

Anvar.p25

Hi G.
I am considering this as last resort option. If I'll say it now before gathering all the facts I need I would come across as a bluffer, no?

stanthomas

The frame will be warranted for defects in manufacturing of the frame. And that excludes damage caused by something fastened to it.

But the bike's less than 12 months old so you should have a case against whoever put it together - fit for purpose etc. If the dealer sold it as a complete bike they are supposed to do a pre-delivery check. Your case would be strengthened if you then took it back to them after a few weeks for that 'first service' that all good LBS offer.
The shop, online or otherwise, is your point of contact and they cannot redirect you to the manufacturer or importer of the bike or any component.

However, if you built it up yourself I fear you might be stuffed

Anvar.p25

stanthomas wrote:

The frame will be warranted for defects in manufacturing of the frame. And that excludes damage caused by something fastened to it.

But the bike's less than 12 months old so you should have a case against whoever put it together - fit for purpose etc. If the dealer sold it as a complete bike they are supposed to do a pre-delivery check. Your case would be strengthened if you then took it back to them after a few weeks for that 'first service' that all good LBS offer.
The shop, online or otherwise, is your point of contact and they cannot redirect you to the manufacturer or importer of the bike or any component.

However, if you built it up yourself I fear you might be stuffed

Hey,
You se exactly here things get muddled. Manufacturer puts the parts together fits the group set parts on the frame and des patches the bike disassembled, I mean wheels part and sit post out and bars. The dealer did pre sale checkup for which I have the note which was sent to me at the time of purchase.
When it comes to the first time service,it's online store and it is located several hundred miles away. Also, the seller didn't mention it to me either. Would that help? And even if not, what is the point of first time service of a week old bike anyway?
I understand it's a preventative measure, however, does it make the case weak or even not worthy arguing about? How often in your experience chainring bolts come off on relatively new bike?

stanthomas

If, as it appears from your comments, you bought a complete bike and it was shipped to you with the chainset fitted then you have a strong case against the bike shop, online or otherwise, that sold it to you. The product must be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality and should not fall apart after 6 months. Your claim is against the retailer and they should repair or replace the bike. If you used a credit card then you can claim against the card issuer if the retailer refuses to honour their obligation.

I have never heard of a chainring bolt coming loose and falling off a new, factory fitted chainset. And I would not consider such a bolt to be an item for a normal pre-ride check. You should probably ask that specific question on this forum to support your case.

me-109

The frame manufacturer will deny any responsibility (sorry, liability) for the bits bolted to it. Part mutha turner will claim it is part of normal servicing and pre-ride checks. Shop will follow same line. If it was the day after servicing you may have a chance but otherwise I doubt it. I went through exactly this when the bolts snapped or fell out of mine (couldn't find the pieces to prove they self-destructed) but outside of bending the spider and inner ring there was no other damage. I'd be pi55ed off writing off a frame because of it.

I've never previously heard of chainring bolts failing. Maybe the cheese they make them out of now to save weight/cost has something to do with the seeming increase of these failures?

Doris Day

Wouldn't your home insurance company sort all of this out for you. Saves you the headache of chasing them.

Pickled Pig

stanthomas wrote:

The frame will be warranted for defects in manufacturing of the frame. And that excludes damage caused by something fastened to it.

But the bike's less than 12 months old so you should have a case against whoever put it together - fit for purpose etc. If the dealer sold it as a complete bike they are supposed to do a pre-delivery check. Your case would be strengthened if you then took it back to them after a few weeks for that 'first service' that all good LBS offer.
The shop, online or otherwise, is your point of contact and they cannot redirect you to the manufacturer or importer of the bike or any component.

However, if you built it up yourself I fear you might be stuffed

This^^
Print off a completed claim form from https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome and send it to Winstanley's (nothing to do with manufacturer as far as you are concerned) to help focus minds.

Anvar.p25

Thanks all for help, ass it can see from your majority replies I need to be dealing with the online shop rather than manufacturer. I'll do that and keep you posted on what's happening.

Just feel like a mug because of all this pal lava.

Winstanleybikes.co.uk is so hard to deal with, just to get the email with reply from manufacturer already taking me two days and three phone calls speaking to different customer advisors. Getting rather frustrated and even thinking about taking the case to small claims court.

Don't want to write off frame which I love...

Cheers all and thanks for support/advise

Anvar.p25

Doris Day wrote:

Wouldn't your home insurance company sort all of this out for you. Saves you the headache of chasing them.

It's covered by anything which would happen in the house but nothing outside, I was even paying additional £10 to have it added to home content insurance but now after having this all and speaking to insurance it seems I was wasting money and should've get a proper bike insurance. :x

Anvar.p25

Pickled Pig wrote:

stanthomas wrote:

The frame will be warranted for defects in manufacturing of the frame. And that excludes damage caused by something fastened to it.

But the bike's less than 12 months old so you should have a case against whoever put it together - fit for purpose etc. If the dealer sold it as a complete bike they are supposed to do a pre-delivery check. Your case would be strengthened if you then took it back to them after a few weeks for that 'first service' that all good LBS offer.
The shop, online or otherwise, is your point of contact and they cannot redirect you to the manufacturer or importer of the bike or any component.

However, if you built it up yourself I fear you might be stuffed

This^^
Print off a completed claim form from https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome and send it to Winstanley's (nothing to do with manufacturer as far as you are concerned) to help focus minds.

Thanks a lot for this!!!

Iamnot Wiggins

Anvar.p25 wrote:

Doris Day wrote:

Wouldn't your home insurance company sort all of this out for you. Saves you the headache of chasing them.

It's covered by anything which would happen in the house but nothing outside, I was even paying additional £10 to have it added to home content insurance but now after having this all and speaking to insurance it seems I was wasting money and should've get a proper bike insurance. :x

And this, ladies & gentlemen, is why you should avoid bottom of the barrel home insurance policies.

Back on topic, it does sound as if your problems lies at the door of the bike shop and not EMC.

kayakerchris

Your claim is always against the retailer in the first instance. if you paid by a credit card then they also have a responsibility. They are often quite helpful in these cases and will either pay or will put pressure on the retailer. The amount that the credit card company charge the retailer varies enormously and simply upping the percentage by 0.5 % will make a big dent in Winstanleys profits. So do ring your credit card.

Filling in a small claim form and sending it to them cost nothing but says you are serious and ask a senior member of staff to get back to you within a period of time or else you will lodge the form with the court.

Ring your insurance again. Almost every insurance has an "all risks" section which should cover you.

Last resort: take photos and send them to the carbon bike repair man in the Midlands. he does some lovely repairs and you probably wont even be able to see the repair site when it is finished.

Good luck

reformedfatty

Anvar.p25 wrote:

The bolt coming loose, falling out and the subsequent damage that it has
caused was absolutely outwith my control

Well.. unless you like, checked over your bike every once in a while for loose bolts that need tightening. As it undoubtedly says in the warranty etc that came with it.

Pickled Pig

reformedfatty wrote:

Well.. unless you like, checked over your bike every once in a while for loose bolts that need tightening. As it undoubtedly says in the warranty etc that came with it.

Really? So anyone buying a bike is expected to have the mechanical aptitude and tools to be able to torque up all fittings? I don't think so, and there is certainly no clause suggesting this in any of my bike warranties.
Would you expect someone to check all the bolts for tightness on a 6 month old washing machine?

slowbike

reformedfatty wrote:

Anvar.p25 wrote:

The bolt coming loose, falling out and the subsequent damage that it has
caused was absolutely outwith my control

Well.. unless you like, checked over your bike every once in a while for loose bolts that need tightening. As it undoubtedly says in the warranty etc that came with it.

Warranty is worthless anyway - this is SoG act.
The OPs claim is with the retailer and he's within the limit of the 6 months where it is assumed that the goods were supplied faulty - beyond that the onus of proof lies with the consumer to provide evidence that the goods were supplied faulty.

It is reasonable to expect a bike to be working and free of defects - whilst there are elements that you couldn't claim back on - puncture, worn chain under certain circumstances and damaged caused by lose bolts that you'd expect the user to have adjusted eg saddle height - I'd argue that a chainring bolt becoming lose is a defect at time of build and the consumer shouldn't be expected to have checked this.

Granted, the error probably occurred at the factory putting together the crankset and it should've been checked before assembling on to the bike - I would guess that this (sh)would've been done before the retailer received the bike, but I don't know what state of build the retailer receives the bikes at - eitherway, the liability is with the retailer and whether or not that can be passed onto the manufacturer is of no concern to the consumer.

The OP should contact the retailer and state that he holds them liable for repairs or replacement of the frame under the sale of goods act. If he paid by card then he should also contact the card issuer to see if there is anything they can do to help - they are usually very helpful with this sort of thing.

Whilst the retailer may be legally responsible for the condition of the bike, do we consumers expect them to do a full torque test on (what are quite probably) pre-built components? I would suggest that this isn't necessary, however, they should accept liability and offer rectification with grace. It is then up to them to reclaim costs from their suppliers if they can.

reformedfatty

Pickled Pig wrote:

reformedfatty wrote:

Well.. unless you like, checked over your bike every once in a while for loose bolts that need tightening. As it undoubtedly says in the warranty etc that came with it.

Really? So anyone buying a bike is expected to have the mechanical aptitude and tools to be able to torque up all fittings? I don't think so, and there is certainly no clause suggesting this in any of my bike warranties.
Would you expect someone to check all the bolts for tightness on a 6 month old washing machine?

If they don't have the tools / aptitude, they can pay a shop to do it. As for comparing washing machines to bikes, thats altogether different. Try comparing it to cars, or something else used in similar conditions, and you'll find these things called maintenance schedules.

A quick google through bike maintenance schedules has me finding a highest suggested time between checking bolts for tightness is 4 months (most suggesting monthly to quarterly). Frankly for a chainring bolt to be so loose as to come out its very surprising the OP didn't notice it before when riding. You can't take a zero maintenance attitude and expect no consequences.

paul_onabike

reformedfatty wrote:

Pickled Pig wrote:

reformedfatty wrote:

Well.. unless you like, checked over your bike every once in a while for loose bolts that need tightening. As it undoubtedly says in the warranty etc that came with it.

Really? So anyone buying a bike is expected to have the mechanical aptitude and tools to be able to torque up all fittings? I don't think so, and there is certainly no clause suggesting this in any of my bike warranties.
Would you expect someone to check all the bolts for tightness on a 6 month old washing machine?

If they don't have the tools / aptitude, they can pay a shop to do it. As for comparing washing machines to bikes, thats altogether different. Try comparing it to cars, or something else used in similar conditions, and you'll find these things called maintenance schedules.

A quick google through bike maintenance schedules has me finding a highest suggested time between checking bolts for tightness is 4 months (most suggesting monthly to quarterly). Frankly for a chainring bolt to be so loose as to come out its very surprising the OP didn't notice it before when riding. You can't take a zero maintenance attitude and expect no consequences.

Sorry reformedfatty but you are incorrect.
Cars are usually only serviced every year. They also have a pre-delivery inspection.

A cycle is still classed as consumer goods, just like a washing machine, as is subject to exactly the same consumer laws.

It is the retailers responsibility to ensure that the goods are durable and fit for purpose.

If an item is going to loosen within the warranty period then it has been incorrectly assembled. This is classed as a manufacturing defect.

The trouble with the cycle industry is that they have not been taken to task by the consumer.
We have parts that are sub-standard and not durable but we just accept it as wear and tear as we have been conditioned to think that.
Just because a product is super light does not mean it is acceptable for it to fail in a short time. A chain lasting 3 months or frames breaking after a year is not acceptable, but people don't complain enough about it.
Complete cycles are not just frames with bits bolted on, they should be assembled to the same standards as any other assembled item. It is a quality control issue.
Retailers try to take shortcuts and duck their responsibilities, but the law is clear, and is on the consumers side.

The way I see the op's problem - is that if the frame in not terminally damaged then he is entitled to a cosmetic repair.
If the original assembler and/or retailer is not willing to do this then the op is within his rights to take it to a third party for a repair, and claim the cost back from the retailer. Since damage occurred within the first six months It is up to the retailer to demonstrate that the goods were not faulty when supplied, rather than the op to prove that they were faulty.

If the frame is structurally damaged then it is the retailers responsibility to replace the frame, not the manufacturers. Your contract is with the retailer, not the manufacturer. If the manufacturer declines a warranty claim this does not affect your right to claim against the retailer.

Lifeboy123

I had a similar unfortunate incident with a Boardman from Halfords, admittedly it was after their post 6 week inspection but the bike was less than 2 months old. Although Halfords offered to repair the bike could have been repaired , they coud not confirm the carbon frame had not been damaged. I referred them to the Sales of Goods Act, the important point to make is that when you return the goods you hand them a letter clearly advising them that you "reject" the goods and request a full refund...if you check some of the old posts you may find a copy of such letter