Large lad handbuilt wheelset help needed please!

bmxboy10
bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
edited April 2014 in Road buying advice
Ok so I have a set of nearly new Ksyrium Elites WTS that I am going to sell. I want to get something handbuilt of equal or better quality. I will need a 32/32 spoke build so was thinking of Ultegra or Dura ace hubs on architypes with spokes as specified buy the wheel builder? out of these two hubs which would you go for? I have 5700 105 on my bike and don't know if the ultegra 6800 and dura ace 9000 are 10 speed compatible? I know the Ultegras are good enough for most people but can stretch to the DA so kind of think why not!

Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    The Ultegra are excellent, they are less than half the price... no brainer. The extra you pay for DA is down to a titanium freehub, which is a luxury... if you want 32/32, go Ultegra. If you want 32/24 you can get Hope Mono RS, which are very good too and come with easy to replace sealed bearings

    DSC_2637.JPG
    left the forum March 2023
  • teebs_123
    teebs_123 Posts: 357
    Snap

    IMAG0205.jpg
    Orbea Orca OMX DI2 MyO
    Kinesis 4s Di2
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    My camera is better than yours... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • teebs_123
    teebs_123 Posts: 357
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    My camera is better than yours... :wink:


    My spokes are blacker than yours! :D
    Orbea Orca OMX DI2 MyO
    Kinesis 4s Di2
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    What spoke count do I need for 15 stones of lard? Ugo can I get away with 24 front 32 rear?

    Also if I go Ultegra do I get 6800 or 6700 for the 105 5700 compatibility.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    solboy10 wrote:
    What spoke count do I need for 15 stones of lard? Ugo can I get away with 24 front 32 rear?

    Also if I go Ultegra do I get 6800 or 6700 for the 105 5700 compatibility.

    32/24 is fine... 6800 will take 9-10 and 11 speed. 6700 will only take 9 and 10 speed... it's a no brainer... you want the newer 6800!
    PS: Ultegra only come as 32
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I would use ultegra hubs or Miche later being cheaper than Hope by a long way while still being very good hubs. The main thing you are buying with Hope hubs are INA bearings but you can fit those to Miche hubs and the Miche hub has a larger bearing. Large bearings a good thing ever wondered why Ultegra hubs last so long. The bearings in Miche hubs last long enough anyway and they come in a variety of drillings.

    The 32H/36H archetype is out of stock in most places though for the next 10 weeks in black .I have had to resort to buying some rims of hub jub recently they bought the last stock. If you go with ultegra 11 speed 6800 hubs try grey rims they go well with silver spokes.

    Ultegra hubs come as 36H as well!

    saving 8 spoke from the front will not save alot of weight if you do not mind 32F/32R then ultegra hub wins out of me. Hope hubs do not even feature.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Hope hubs do not even feature.

    Sour grapes and you know it... :wink:

    Hope are great and out of the 30 + sets I have built, I have never heard of a problem or a bad word... the freehub mechanism is superb, compared to the undersized competition and the bearings are of good quality and easy to find and replace. 180 quid a set for good hubs made in Britain is a bargain.
    A 24 front is light, aerodynamic and it will last as long as a higher count one for most riders... how many 16 spokes front wheels give problems?
    So 24 is plenty... the limitation is what the hubs manufacturers offer, rather than a choice... 32 front is OTT with modern rims, but if you want Ultegra, that's what is available
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I never said they were not good hubs I have some MTB XC Pro's and they have been great for me but given the choice available in road hubs I really don't see the point - Miche come in 24H drillings and are very good as you know and the difference in price more than pays for a set of INA 6001 C3 bearings and 6901 freehub bearings. Not sour grapes at all just thinking bottom line. What Hope have done very well in marketing in fact they have done it better than most and credit to them for that.

    I know a 24F is lighter and aerodynamic which is why I build so many of them! With ultegra though you have no choice though and given the hubs work so well I do not see a big problem.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    It's not the bearings. In fact I am not sure Hope bearings are still INA, if they were how come they cost 4 quid each while INA cost 12 for the same 6902RS size?
    What Hope do well is pawls and springs... the engagement system is superior to any other out there and does not self destroy at the first drop of water that enters the shell, like Novatec and Miche do.
    Bearings are bearings and their life has more to do with the machining tolerances and alignment of the shell rather than the bearing itself.
    All things can be fixed and replaced, but a freehub can jam during the best cycling trip of the year, far away from any shop that stocks a spare freehub or spare parts, so having a more reliable system is not a bad thing and certainly worth an extra 100 quid, given the price of pointless upgrades out there
    left the forum March 2023
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    Ok so DA9000 seem to be around £240 for a pair and the Hopes around £220. I still think i may go Ultegra but out of the DA and Hope what would you go for.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    solboy10 wrote:
    Ok so DA9000 seem to be around £240 for a pair and the Hopes around £220. I still think i may go Ultegra but out of the DA and Hope what would you go for.

    Hope are 182 at Westbrook cycles. Depends... Dura Ace are better hubs, built with better materials, but Hope have sealed cartridges which can be replaced. If you service your hubs and don't ride in dreadful conditions too often, go for DA, otherwise go for Hope. Replacing cones and balls can be a bit of a strike of luck...they might never work well again, while when you replace cartridges you virtually have as new hubs. Replacing parts in Dura Ace hubs can be extremely costly, although if treated well they might never need new parts. Replacing parts in Hope hubs is cheap. Let's put it this way...
    I enjoy replacing cartridge bearings, while I have never liked adjusting cones... :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    Ok so done a bit of research and the Hopes look good and will add a bit of bling. Do the Hopes come with QR scewers or not? Also just want to be double be sure that 24/32 is going to be ok for my weight as this is the reason for going back to hand builts in the first place! :?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    solboy10 wrote:
    Ok so done a bit of research and the Hopes look good and will add a bit of bling. Do the Hopes come with QR scewers or not? Also just want to be double be sure that 24/32 is going to be ok for my weight as this is the reason for going back to hand builts in the first place! :?

    1) No QR skewers
    2) Yes... most of the work and load is carried by the rear wheel. The front wheel is just there... moreover, the front is inherently a strong wheel, the hub is wider, the bracing angle is greater, all is good
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Really do Miche freehub mechanisms self distruct at the first sign of water - well I can tell you they don't. I have riden through more water -fully submerged hubs deep- than I can count and still the hubs work this is on more than one set too (Miche hubs have not let me down yet) so lets not cast too many aspertions here. Yes Hope use INA, INA/FAG confirmed that to me. There is nothing instrically better about hope's freehub mechanism than Miche's as they both use a ratchet ring and pawls made of steel. I forget how many pairs of Miche hubs I have used but is far more than 30 (many times more) and none have failed.

    None of this is to say do not use Hope hubs as I have said I have a set of Hope XC Pro's on a set of MTB wheels which have served me and continue to serve me well although I do not use them much now (replaced by tubular wheels with XTR hubs)

    also I ride with cup and cone hubs in terrible conditions (off road bikes all on shimano XT and some of my road bikes are too) and once serviced they run like new again. I also service allot of hubs and if the shells are good then replacing the balls with good ones and the cones if needed always has them running like new again. It has to be done though before hub shell pitting starts. This is not an issue on campagnolo hubs though due to there design. So lets get our facts right before we start dimissing hubs outright.

    Adjusting cones is easy when you know how - just because you don't like servicing them does not mean they are no good.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • natsnoz
    natsnoz Posts: 235
    How would you know what width rear hope hub you would need?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    natsnoz wrote:
    How would you know what width rear hope hub you would need?

    SImple, you need 130 for a road bike.
    135 is only for MTB with no disc brakes and some other frames with wider dropouts
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    There is nothing instrically better about hope's freehub mechanism than Miche's as they both use a ratchet ring and pawls made of steel.
    Look again, they are very different... one has a steel ring that acts as a spring, the other has individual springs for each pawl... they are completely different. The strength of the spring is completely different, the clearance, the contact points... they have nothing in common.

    I like Miche and I do use them, but I think Hope are better... my opinion
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited March 2014
    Yes there is that difference but the result which is what is important is the same. Hope's design does not make the freehub mechanism work and how the pawls move in and out is mostly irrelevent so long as they do and in both designs they move in and out reliably. Beside they are the same in the sense they are rachet and pawl freehubs and all racthet and pawl freehubs are about as reliable as the next one.

    to me Miche and hope hubs are as good as each other, one comes in lots of pretty anodised colours and costs alot more. One is also a bit lighter due to the alloy axles.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Yes there is that difference but the result which is what is important is the same. Hope's design does not make the freehub mechanism work and how the pawls move in and out is mostly irrelevent so long as they do and in both designs they move in and out reliably.

    Indeed, which they do for longer and better if the pawls are bigger and have a stronger spring.
    The steel ring is a mediocre system.. in time it corrodes and loses its function... pawls become weak and unresponsive and eventually they seize up. It's a quick job to replace them, but you have to stay on top of it, clean it, lubricate it, which IME people don't do.
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    with that rational then most road cyclist should use internal hub gearbox driven by a prop shaft - bikes like this do exist as most people do not maintain there chains. I have yet to see the problem you describe in my hubs or the ones I have built with. Also when taking the freehub body off a hope hub pawls and springs can fly everywhere which is annoying so fault can be found with everything if you really want to fault something. Also many designs over the years have used the steel spring idea shimano freehubs for one and all freewheels and they go on and on well good freewheels do anyway. You should also clean and grease the pawls and springs on a hope hub if you do not loose them when taking the freehub out.

    Also Hope freehubs are quite soft. I have found cassette's on Hope hubs where I have struggled to get the cassette off. Not the case with miche hubs even with seperate steel (Miche) sprockets maybe Miche made sure there freehubs work with there cassettes anyone would think they have thought about it . However all shimano pattern alloy freehubs notch to certain extent. A2Z (MTB hubs) freehub bodies are by far the worst though even hope freehubs are not that bad.

    both designs work one is not inherantly better than the other when the freehub body is entirely replaceable. What will kill both hubs in the long run is ratchet ring wear and that will take a very long time indeed.

    This is turning into a who's hub is better thread which is kind of pointless so lets leave it alone now.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • frazered
    frazered Posts: 333
    Got archetypes on miche hubs with 6800 ultegra groupset - lovely stuff and very smooth.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    This is turning into a who's hub is better thread which is kind of pointless so lets leave it alone now.

    It is very pointless... if you rewind, you'll find out you started it... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • Essex Rouleur
    Essex Rouleur Posts: 98
    If it helps i was 23 stone when i first started back into cycling, that was on a set of Easton EA50 aero wheels, never had a problem once, never went out of true and never had a single spoke problem.
    When i lost weight and got down to 19 stone which i am now I have been using Shimano RS80's and Ultegra hoops, for well over a year and havent had a single problem with either of them.

    Unless youre running incredibly light wheels I wouldnt worry too much, Shimano wheels dont have a weight limit and the Eastons i had were also bomb proof. All of them had their basic spoke counts you buy out of the box and the bike had regular services, the wheels were barely touched apart from new grease.

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