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  • CrankbrotherCrankbrother Posts: 1,695
    artstan wrote:
    Unless you can have climbed the Cols of France, unless you have the skill and fitness to ride and push yourself to your limits then I don't think you can be a good armchair critic.

    If you have no idea of the physicality of the sport and you don't if your a fat bloke riding a bike slowly for fun then your opinion is worth less I'm afraid.

    I don't see how you can criticize an athlete having a bad day when your watching the racing wearing your Jacamo clothes and eating a doughnut.


    If I understand your theory correctly, the above (ill-structured) sentences are your first steps towards reading which book?
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    iainf72 wrote:
    artstan wrote:
    Unless you can have climbed the Cols of France, unless you have the skill and fitness to ride and push yourself to your limits then I don't think you can be a good armchair critic.

    If you have no idea of the physicality of the sport and you don't if your a fat bloke riding a bike slowly for fun then your opinion is worth less I'm afraid.

    I don't see how you can criticize an athlete having a bad day when your watching the racing wearing your Jacamo clothes and eating a doughnut.

    So extending that logic, unless you have worked in a Michelin starred restaurant, you can't judge food, if you've not won an Oscar you can't judge films etc etc

    I'm sure that position would also go down well with the folks who like watching cycling but can't ride a bike.

    Don't extend it, after all we are discussing Cycling. A physical sport where you can be at your limits.

    I don't think eating some Salmon ceviche with vanilla, pink peppercorns is quite the same as climbing 4 Cols in a few hours.

    My point is more about those who criticize a rider for not attacking or not getting in the breakaway.

    Sometimes it's just not possible and it's to easy to pick or chastise someone when your sitting on your sofa.

    If you do have cycle experience to a good level then I think you can appreciate what the riders are going through a little better.
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Quick PSA. Incoming Hogwash - the effluent meeting the affluent.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    Macaloon wrote:
    Quick PSA. Incoming Hogwash - the effluent meeting the affluent.



    Unless you have ever pushed your self to your physical limits then you have no idea the sort of feelings and emotions athletes go through.


    You are welcome to your opinion but that response shows little more than immaturity and a lack of real life experience.............good for you
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    artstan wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Quick PSA. Incoming Hogwash - the effluent meeting the affluent.



    Unless you have ever pushed your self to your physical limits then you have no idea the sort of feelings and emotions athletes go through.


    You are welcome to your opinion but that response shows little more than immaturity and a lack of real life experience.............good for you

    I believe you are here (again) to cause havoc to compensate for your Clinic ban. If subsequent events prove me wrong I will unreservedly apologise.

    Meanwhile (pending your inevitable ban from here). Don't waste your time responding to my posts.

    Edit Apologies to the OP and subsequent posters for this short derailment of a great thread.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    Macaloon wrote:
    artstan wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Quick PSA. Incoming Hogwash - the effluent meeting the affluent.



    Unless you have ever pushed your self to your physical limits then you have no idea the sort of feelings and emotions athletes go through.


    You are welcome to your opinion but that response shows little more than immaturity and a lack of real life experience.............good for you

    I believe you are here (again) to cause havoc to compensate for your Clinic ban. If subsequent events prove me wrong I will unreservedly apologise.

    Meanwhile (pending your inevitable ban from here). Don't waste your time responding to my posts.

    Edit Apologies to the OP and subsequent posters for this short derailment of a great thread.

    It was you who has derailed an excellent thread. Its a shame you have to resort to such remarks when I was making a valid and on topic post.

    I am sure the OP and us following poster's accept your apology so lets get back on track.
  • CorianderCoriander Posts: 1,326
    Oh dear, the interloping apostrophes are back. And more object pronouns acting as subject ones. It's a lovely day here in Pedant's Corner.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    What's artstan talking about?

    All I was wondering is: If you don't cycle, how did you get into pro cycling?

    As a child, sticking on the TV and seeing bikes, I immediately thought: BORING and went back to playing with my stick or my favourite, a brick. Now I cycle quite a bit, I have started to get into it more, which to me seems like a more natural transition.

    Those who grew up watching it with grandparents who were into it makes sense.

    Comparisons with F1, football, cricket etc don't really count as they are already mainstream sports and (except F1) most people will play these sports on a regular basis while growing up. In the case of F1, many people (boys moreso, perhaps) like cars, speed, racing etc so its a natural interest. I'm yet to watch a race with the quieter engines though.

    As for things like 'you need to be able to ride like a pro to be able to appreciate it' is among more of the less thought-out comments.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    Coriander wrote:
    Oh dear, the interloping apostrophes are back. And more object pronouns acting as subject ones. It's a lovely day here in Pedant's Corner.
    Shouldn't it be Pendants' Corner?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    coriordan wrote:
    What's artstan talking about?

    All I was wondering is: If you don't cycle, how did you get into pro cycling?

    As a child, sticking on the TV and seeing bikes, I immediately thought: BORING and went back to playing with my stick or my favourite, a brick. Now I cycle quite a bit, I have started to get into it more, which to me seems like a more natural transition.

    Those who grew up watching it with grandparents who were into it makes sense.

    Comparisons with F1, football, cricket etc don't really count as they are already mainstream sports and (except F1) most people will play these sports on a regular basis while growing up. In the case of F1, many people (boys moreso, perhaps) like cars, speed, racing etc so its a natural interest. I'm yet to watch a race with the quieter engines though.

    As for things like 'you need to be able to ride like a pro to be able to appreciate it' is among more of the less thought-out comments.

    If you have read some of the previous posts that was some of the points being made :roll:

    I certainly never posted 'you need to be able to ride like a pro to be able to appreciate it'
    So please don't put words into my mouth. Thank you.

    But I do think if you have done some riding to a good standard then it obviously would give you a better insight into the physical demands needed and the amount of effort it takes.

    You certainly will not get that from only ever watching cycling sitting on your sofa.

    Do you agree?
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    artstan wrote:
    coriordan wrote:
    What's artstan talking about?

    All I was wondering is: If you don't cycle, how did you get into pro cycling?

    As a child, sticking on the TV and seeing bikes, I immediately thought: BORING and went back to playing with my stick or my favourite, a brick. Now I cycle quite a bit, I have started to get into it more, which to me seems like a more natural transition.

    Those who grew up watching it with grandparents who were into it makes sense.

    Comparisons with F1, football, cricket etc don't really count as they are already mainstream sports and (except F1) most people will play these sports on a regular basis while growing up. In the case of F1, many people (boys moreso, perhaps) like cars, speed, racing etc so its a natural interest. I'm yet to watch a race with the quieter engines though.

    As for things like 'you need to be able to ride like a pro to be able to appreciate it' is among more of the less thought-out comments.

    If you have read some of the previous posts that was some of the points being made :roll:

    I certainly never posted 'you need to be able to ride like a pro to be able to appreciate it'
    So please don't put words into my mouth. Thank you.

    But I do think if you have done some riding to a good standard then it obviously would give you a better insight into the physical demands needed and the amount of effort it takes.

    You certainly will not get that from only ever watching cycling sitting on your sofa.

    Do you agree?

    Did you no't like your previous' user'name?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    Hmm, I'd say 2 people have said that.

    Most others have talked about their parents, tactics and the scenery!
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    They put the vigil in vigilante for a good reason.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    Just to clarify.

    My name is Brigid and I am a first time poster.

    You obviously suffer from some kind of first poster anxiety disorder. Previous posters must have caused you quite a bit of distress :lol:

    Let it go and lets move on shall we.

    Now any chance you can answer the previous post so we can get back on topic
  • dsoutardsoutar Posts: 1,746
    Not sure whether this analogy is any good or not.

    I like going round museums and galleries. When I go round somewhere like the Tate, there are some items I like and others I don't. Now I have never studied art nor do I draw or paint and really know censored all about it so when someone asks me why I like a particular item, I just say "because I do" rather than give a Brian Sewell "Blah, blah, blah" type response.

    Now perhaps armchair fans are similar. They can appreciate things even though they haven't done the things that the pros have done. I'm not saying I am like a pro but I have at least dragged my corpse of many an alpine col so at least I have that similarity. However I don't believe that not having done that (or more) precludes one from appreciation of the sport.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    I agree.

    My point which seems to have got lost was in fact more about how little athletes efforts are appreciated at times even when doing their best.

    It's easy sitting on the couch and shouting but if you have some experience of suffering as athletes both pro and even novice can have then perhaps it would give you a different opinion about that rider getting dropped on so and so climb rather than just saying they are useless and judge him/her so quickly.

    Maybe a few posters might start riding their bikes a bit more :D

    You have nailed it dsoutar I just made it confusing.

    Brian Sewell commentating on the cycling. That would be fantastic.
    Thanks
  • jordan_217jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    It all started here for me:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=243BJu0zB50

    Goosebumps listening to it now and used to be in my head riding around our estate on a 5spd Raleigh Mustang.
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,298
    dsoutar wrote:
    Not sure whether this analogy is any good or not.

    I like going round museums and galleries. When I go round somewhere like the Tate, there are some items I like and others I don't. Now I have never studied art nor do I draw or paint and really know censored all about it so when someone asks me why I like a particular item, I just say "because I do" rather than give a Brian Sewell "Blah, blah, blah" type response.

    Now perhaps armchair fans are similar. They can appreciate things even though they haven't done the things that the pros have done. I'm not saying I am like a pro but I have at least dragged my corpse of many an alpine col so at least I have that similarity. However I don't believe that not having done that (or more) precludes one from appreciation of the sport.

    Sure you can appreciate art, but wont an artist has a deeper understanding of what it takes to produce a piece of art. Similar in cycling, you must have gained some appreciation of what it takes to climb and descend a col, maybe sprint in a bunch or whatever, by doing it.

    Just an observation but the non racers on here do tend to be more obsessed with the twitter chat and the politics, the bike riders seem to be into it more for the racing.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • CrankbrotherCrankbrother Posts: 1,695
    artstan wrote:

    It's easy sitting on the couch and shouting but if you have some experience of suffering as athletes both pro and even novice can have then perhaps it would give you a different opinion about that rider getting dropped on so and so climb rather than just saying they are useless and judge him/her so quickly.

    Maybe a few posters might start riding their bikes a bit more :D

    I base my perception of effort on the rider's previous performances and also against those they are riding away from or being dropped by ... For example, Andy Schleck gets dropped on a hill that Kittell makes it over in the front group ... I think that it is suitable for me to call him 'useless' based on normal parameters ...
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 20,358
    artstan wrote:
    Just to clarify.

    My name is Brigid and I am a first time poster.

    You obviously suffer from some kind of first poster anxiety disorder. Previous posters must have caused you quite a bit of distress :lol:

    Let it go and lets move on shall we.

    Now any chance you can answer the previous post so we can get back on topic

    So, given your precise POV, which pro team do you ride for, Brigid?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    artstan wrote:

    It's easy sitting on the couch and shouting but if you have some experience of suffering as athletes both pro and even novice can have then perhaps it would give you a different opinion about that rider getting dropped on so and so climb rather than just saying they are useless and judge him/her so quickly.

    Maybe a few posters might start riding their bikes a bit more :D

    I base my perception of effort on the rider's previous performances and also against those they are riding away from or being dropped by ... For example, Andy Schleck gets dropped on a hill that Kittell makes it over in the front group ... I think that it is suitable for me to call him 'useless' based on normal parameters ...

    Your right he's not very good anymore is he? What has happened to him?
    His brother seems to be getting back on track.

    I tend to think his head and heart are not up for it anymore.

    He his desperate to win a tour on his own merit and Froome will just put to much time into him in the TT and that is to much of an hurdle to get over.

    He should just go for some big stage wins and see how things pan out.

    He has been very poor this year.

    He his useless :lol:
  • CrankbrotherCrankbrother Posts: 1,695
    So you agree that anyone who watched the TdF on TV over the past 5 years could easily make a correct observation on Andy Schleck?
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    The IMHO most insightful cycling commentator anywhere at the moment, Michel Wuyts (Sporza, Flanders), has never cycled at any serious level. He does some running to keep fit.
  • andypandyp Posts: 9,151
    You only have to watch coverage of football in the UK to know that previous participation does not automatically give the ability to offer up any worthwhile insight.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    While grateful for the input, it was more a question of just how you got into it, and why (as a non-cyclist) you like it.

    Comparisons with some of the biggest sports in the world aren't really valid.
  • artstanartstan Posts: 27
    So you agree that anyone who watched the TdF on TV over the past 5 years could easily make a correct observation on Andy Schleck?

    Well to be honest you or me have no idea what is going wrong with Andy.

    We can only judge on what we see or what info is let slip by Treks PR machine.

    If you want to call him useless then that is your choice. I was just joking.

    He obviously has things to sort out and hopefully can get back to his best.
  • RideOnTimeRideOnTime Posts: 4,712
    jordan_217 wrote:
    It all started here for me:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=243BJu0zB50

    Goosebumps listening to it now and used to be in my head riding around our estate on a 5spd Raleigh Mustang.

    :D nice little reminder.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 18,135
    For those who got into cycling in the 80s and 90s how were you watching?

    I don't recall it being on terrestrial TV in the UK outside of C4s TDF highlights.

    Early Sky adopters?
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
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  • RideOnTimeRideOnTime Posts: 4,712
    For those who got into cycling in the 80s and 90s how were you watching?

    I don't recall it being on terrestrial TV in the UK outside of C4s TDF highlights.

    Early Sky a dop t ers?

    There's a subliminal message in there.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    For those who got into cycling in the 80s and 90s how were you watching?

    I don't recall it being on terrestrial TV in the UK outside of C4s TDF highlights.
    Just Channel 4 for me. I didn't get Eurosport until about 1998. However, in the 80s I read a lot. I learned everything from books and magazines (Winning was the big one back then)
    Twitter: @RichN95
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