Headset help

Anonymous

I have an odd headset in that the top half is a cartridge and the bottom is about 40 tiny bearings.

I tried to DIY replacement bearings and looked into swapping the bottom out for a cartridge, but the crown race on the fork doesn't seem to fit a cartridge type bearing, as it wont go back in all the way.

My question is: does anyone recognise what I am talking about, and if so, can I get these 40 tiny bearings on a race so I can just slot it in, rather than feeding them in one by one. I have no idea how many I need - i've now also lost a load of them!

oh, its 1 1/8inch, non tapered. Don't really want to go down a new fork route to fit a cartridge one.

Thanks!

ugo.santalucia

You need a retainer!

Anonymous

Can you elaborate please ugo?

ugo.santalucia

A balls retainer... something like this but in your size (this is for old BB)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/38030316 ... =95&ff19=0

Anonymous

except the bearings are much smaller, maybe 1/2mm each and there are 40 (at least!) of them.

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

except the bearings are much smaller, maybe 1/2mm each and there are 40 (at least!) of them.

Maybe is vague and 1/2 of a mm is impossible, that would be as big as medium sized grains of sand, you need to measure them with a Vernier... Campagnolo makes balls with retainers but they have a precise size to fit their races... 3/16th and 5/32 of an inch

Anonymous

At a guess I would say they are 1mm, but I don't have a set of verniers.

ugo.santalucia

WIth bearings it's all about having the right size... if they were 1 mm each, you would need well more than 40 to fill the race... a quick calculation lead me to believe you'd need around 90... slo most likely they are around 2 mm each... but you still need the correct size, otherwise it won't work... :roll:

Anonymous

They are nearer 1 than 2mm, hence why I said there are around 40 of them. Oddly the top is a cartridge and the bottom are ball bearings

What's annoying is that the existing setup won't allow a cartridge to go in the bottom as the bottom of the fork seems to have a race built in to hold the ball bearings (like a cone on a hub) so if I try and sit a cartridge bearing, it doesn't sit flush.

ugo.santalucia

I get it and I am telling you to fill a race of around 1 and 1/8 you need about 90 1 mm balls... so it's nearer 2 mm if you have around 40.
Get a Vernier or get a new headset

dgunthor

you can fit loose replacement balls - just apply grease first into the cup on the frame, apply the balls and they will stick in the grease, then put the fork in.

if you want to fit a cartridge bearing then buy a 1 1/8 headset and it will come with a fork crown race that suits the new bearing - remove the old one from the fork and fit the new one.

if you're not sure about any of this, just take it to your LBS who should be able to sort it no problem - they might even have a cartridge bearing that fits your existing setup

dgunthor

PS the loose bearings tend to be standard sizes

keef66

1mm bearings? Are you sure? They must look like granulated sugar!

Anonymous

I am trying to find a ruler, but I reckon they must be in the region of 1-2mm. I would guess there are 40 or so for just the bottom race.

buckmulligan

I think we've established that guessing isn't going to get you very far...

Anonymous

Looks like 5/32 from a quick google, but will try and measure them.

What I was surprised is that they were not presented like this:
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_210157

But instead were just loads of the buggers totally loose, so have now lost a load on the floor.

lesfirth

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I get it and I am telling you to fill a race of around 1 and 1/8 you need about 90 1 mm balls... so it's nearer 2 mm if you have around 40.
Get a Vernier or get a new headset

Ugo.santalucia, I think you have the patience of a saint and you must have a PhD in being helpful.

Anonymous

So the bearings were this size and I managed to get a load from the LBS. Replaced them all without too much hassle with loads of grease.



Now for some reason I can't tension it. Either it's really loose and this morning the front wheel was juddering like hell under braking, but if I tighten the top cap then it becomes so stiff I can barely turn the bars, with no sweet stop in between

drlodge

coriordan wrote:

So the bearings were this size and I managed to get a load from the LBS. Replaced them all without too much hassle with loads of grease.



Now for some reason I can't tension it. Either it's really loose and this morning the front wheel was juddering like hell under braking, but if I tighten the top cap then it becomes so stiff I can barely turn the bars, with no sweet stop in between

Looks like 1/8" bearings - what size did you replace them with?

Anonymous

the same size, surprisingly

mercia_man

coriordan wrote:

So the bearings were this size and I managed to get a load from the LBS. Replaced them all without too much hassle with loads of grease.



Now for some reason I can't tension it. Either it's really loose and this morning the front wheel was juddering like hell under braking, but if I tighten the top cap then it becomes so stiff I can barely turn the bars, with no sweet stop in between

It may be you have squeezed in too many balls so it won't run freely when tightened up correctly. There should be a gap between the loose balls when you stick them in the grease. They shouldn't be hard up against each other. You could try taking just one ball out and trying to adjust again.

ugo.santalucia

Loose balls will give you problems, that's a fact of life.
I'm tempted to suggest a new headset, sometimes this bonus needs to be spent! Remember the damn thing is saving you thousands in Oyster card and every now and again you need to feed a few pounds to keep it going

Anonymous

Don't think there are too many bearings in there, as I did as suggested above - fill it up then remove a couple.

To be honest I think you are right that it needs replacing, but I was really hoping to be able to sort it myself.

Also frustratingly, the expander star nut thingy won't punch through the hole at the bottom of the steerer tube as the hole is too small. I think it's going to the LBS on Monday.

keef66

If it's a steel steerer then all you need is more brute force / bigger tools to dislodge the star nut. Or just leave it in there and tap in a new one.

Is it possible the bearings that fell out were the result of an earlier DIY replacement and are the wrong size, so the new ones are also too small?

Anonymous

Bearings used to be perfect and it was silky smooth. I brought an old one in and asked the guy to get me a load more the same size. When I compared them, they were identical.

The headset itself is a non-threaded, so no star nut on this one. Ideally I'd like to have someone else have a look at it as I can't be bothered any more, and let me know exactly what is going wrong. It's damn hard to do without a bike stand!

drlodge

coriordan wrote:

When I compared them, they were identical.

How did you compare them - vernier caliper? 1/8" is very close to 3mm but its not the same.

Anonymous

Ah. I do still have some of the originals and new ones kicking around so can give it a try. Not sure I am in the market for a set of vernier calipers though.

NE Cycleworks

You can grab a set on ebay for £7 or go to your LBS and use their Park bearing ruler which will show you what size they are.

Spectre

Those look like 1/8th and are fairly standard.
Is there any chance the bearing race is worn out and the new bearings are sitting in pits and grooves when you tighten the headset?