Pre-race Safety Briefing - 4th Cat

Escher303

So 4th cat races are well known for poor bike handling skills, riders who are unable to hold their line and erratic manoeuvres which often result in crashes. Despite many riders shouting 'hold your line!' It seems that many of those shouting cannot hold their line either.

The last pre race safety talk I heard consisted of 'use your common sense', 'we don't want any crashes', and 'talk to each other'.

In my experience the ones riding dangerously don't have any common sense and do plenty of shouting at others. With advice like the above you might as well not give a safety briefing as it makes absolutely no difference.

What may have more success is the commissaries explaining what holding your line actually means, what being sensible consists of and what common sense you should actually use. That way some of the numpties might actually learn something.

Should crap riding and frequent crashes just be accepted as the norm? Is there any point in trying to teach people how to ride before they endanger others? Could an official ride with the group and DQ poor handlers? Or is crashing due to poor riding simply an occupational hazard?

Pross

I'd have a track style accreditation system that everyone has to pass before being able to obtain a race licence (and no racing without a licence). I would also have cameras mounted in commissaires cars during road races and have consistently dangerous riders banned for certain periods. I've seen comms issue fines for dangerous riding but I was told they can't remove someone's licence which seems odd. Plus it isn't just 4th cats, in my experience there are bad riders at all levels. Winning races and moving up doesn't improve skill levels or common sense.

Escher303

Thanks Pross.

I didn't see the other thread about safety before I posted this one. I was interested in people's thoughts about whether there's any likelihood of improving the safety in races. Sadly after reading the other thread it seems that is very unlikely and recklessness is extremely common. Rather than going with the forlorn hope of improving things it probably comes down to making a personal choice as to whether you accept the risk of possible injury or not.

I was taken out in a race last weekend by someone riding poorly which resulted in a big pile up and me with a shoulder injury that has put me out for a couple of months. I guess I was just unlucky and need to weigh up whether I want to continue. But I agree with what you say, there really should be a basic level of riding that you need to be able demonstrate before you are allowed to ride. I would be vey happy to do that myself and confident I have the necessary skills.

Southgate

I've completed half a dozen races as a 4th at Hillingdon, and my experience is that there are two types of dangerous rider.

One, the guys who deliberately try crazy manoeuvres in the hope of moving up, e.g. go for gaps that don't exist or cut up the inside of a hairpin. These aggressive boy racers have neither the skills nor the experience to pull it off. They are a menace and should be executed without a trial before they cause any more crashes.

Two, everyone else. The problem with beginners is that by definition we don't know what the hell we're doing. You learn through making mistakes, whether that's getting twitchy on the brakes or entering a corner too fast and failing to hold your line. Lots of riders shout stuff but mostly I don't see them riding better than anyone else. If they were as good as they think they are they wouldn't still be 4th's, would they?

I freely admit that I have made some unintentional and unforced errors, generally in the last few laps when the pace increases and everyone is fighting for position. Fortunately I haven't caused any crashes, although I have narrowly avoided several. I've learned a lot in my first few races and I'd like to think that I am now a far safer and more competent rider. I see other riders' errors and now think: Hm, I was doing that a few weeks ago.

I would like something to be done about the boy racers, but as for the rest of us, well, what can you do? When I rocked up to my first ever race, I confess that I expected to finish in the top 10. After all, I was a half decent club rider and I train hard, so how hard could it be? Haha.... well, I learned the hard way! It wasn't the pace, although the surges hurt like hell. No, what was different was that no amount of club rides, sportives and TTs had prepared me, could prepare me, for a knuckle-to-knuckle crit race. It's just so different.

Now, with a little bit of experience under my belt, it would be easy to play the big shot and shout at newbies. But it doesn't help them or me. Bottom line is, racing is not risk free and if you're not willing to accept the risks, then stick to sportives.

Pross

I'm not sure the 'if they are as good as they think they are they wouldn't still be 4th cats' rings true unfortunately. There is no correlation between being a safe rider and being able to win races. I would say that's part of the problem now, there used to be an element of natural selection where new riders would get dropped early and learn gradually as they improved their fitness but now people who are new to bike racing can often have been riding sportives or come from another sporting background so can be competitive. It also means the standard at 3rd cat can be just as bad (and to be honest, some people with years of racing experience and results can still be a menace).

Omar Little

I agree that track style accreditation would improve things. That isnt to say track racing has no unsafe riding - there are still crashes and there will always be a minority of reckless riders who will move up without looking and who cant hold their line and there are also others who will make the occassional mistake (including myself) but compared to the average 4th cat race it is much better.

You can see it with the difference between 4th cat and youths / juniors too. The youngsters are much tidier and generally look like they know what they are doing and that is thanks to the coaching a majority of them have gone through. Adults on the other hand can just buy a license, pay the entry fee and turn up and race...i suspect some of them have no experience of even a chaingang prior to pinning on a number. No wonder it can be chaos at times.

DeVlaeminck

Lots of coaching round here for women, laid on by BC, most of those taking part I've spoken to have no intention of actually racing. Lots for youths. All this is good and I'm not knocking it but BC lays on nothing at all for novice men who make up the bulk of road race entrants.

Before someone says organise it yourself then I have in the past, along with races and youth coaching but as there are now people who are paid to do this sort of thing it seems odd that the majority aren't catered for.

144 riders on the start line at Darley Moor last weekend for a 3/4 - staying safe in a field of novices that big takes some skill.

gavbarron

Southgate wrote:

I If they were as good as they think they are they wouldn't still be 4th's, would they?

Bit of a sweeping statement. I've only done a handful of races as I tend to do TT more often than not and have worked abroad for a lot of the last few season. In the races I've done I've been caught up in crashes a few times on penultimate laps, been in a two man breakaway that succeeded, and more often than not, sat on the front and strung it out so that my club mates who take it a bit more seriously are well placed to get points for their licences.
I've no doubt if I really wanted to I could get cat 3 in a good break as average pace is usually around 25 which is less than a TT but I rarely race and even when I've raced in 2/3/4 races, the standard isn't that much higher so why bother.

The licence doesn't necessarily mean you are 'better', you could just be a really strong TT er and got in a few breaks which doesn't require a high level of bike handling ability to win or you could just be a strong sprinter and let everyone else carry you round to the finish. There are plenty of great cat 4 riders out there who are excellent bike handlers and get a bike round bends and down hills at speeds of a pro but they just don't have the legs to mix it in a race. Conversely, I know a few cat 1&2 who are monsters and get points through pure power but couldn't hold a good line on a technical course.

damocles10

I think the 4th cats learn through experience, a crash is a good way to learn what not to do. I was 4th Cat ages ago and managed to move to 3rd in around 3 or 4 races. Even in 3rd Cat races there are really bad decisions and riders not holding their line on corners. I found my best way to survive was in a break away. My favourite tactic was to wait for a intermediate sprint(s) where the hotshots would sprint for book tokens and then go for it - sometimes it worked, when there is 3/4 riders committed, especially on Crits.

On the whole it would be wise for organisers to spell out some basics for new riders.

Southgate

Southgate wrote:

I If they were as good as they think they are they wouldn't still be 4th's, would they?

I've read the comments, and yes, that was a bit of a sweeping statement. Thanks for correcting me.

Tjgoodhew

I am somebody that is going to take the plunge and start racing this year.

Other than advice from people on this forum i literally have no idea what i should and shouldn't be doing and it is already making me nervous.

People say the only way to learn is to go and do it but i would definitely welcome some sort of course or accreditation similar to that for track cycling - im actually booked at the Olympic Velodrome over Easter and looking forward to it

My concern is i will make a massive mistake and end up causing a crash and not only hurting myself but hurting others around me. Im guessing this will make me a nervous rider and that in turn makes my riding worse and more likely to cause a crash.

herzog

Tjgoodhew wrote:

I am somebody that is going to take the plunge and start racing this year.

Other than advice from people on this forum i literally have no idea what i should and shouldn't be doing and it is already making me nervous.

People say the only way to learn is to go and do it but i would definitely welcome some sort of course or accreditation similar to that for track cycling - im actually booked at the Olympic Velodrome over Easter and looking forward to it

My concern is i will make a massive mistake and end up causing a crash and not only hurting myself but hurting others around me. Im guessing this will make me a nervous rider and that in turn makes my riding worse and more likely to cause a crash.

Join a club and get experience of riding safely in a bunch for starters. Many don't and others pay the price...

Pross

Tjgoodhew wrote:

I am somebody that is going to take the plunge and start racing this year.

Other than advice from people on this forum i literally have no idea what i should and shouldn't be doing and it is already making me nervous.

People say the only way to learn is to go and do it but i would definitely welcome some sort of course or accreditation similar to that for track cycling - im actually booked at the Olympic Velodrome over Easter and looking forward to it

My concern is i will make a massive mistake and end up causing a crash and not only hurting myself but hurting others around me. Im guessing this will make me a nervous rider and that in turn makes my riding worse and more likely to cause a crash.

As said above, get used to riding in a group first (you say the only advice you have had is reading this site so I'm assuming you aren't in a club?). It still won't prepare you fully as the group will probably be smaller and the pace will definitely be slower but you will get a feel for being close to other riders.

That said, there really isn't much to riding safely:-

1. Don't make any sudden movements sideways and check your shoulder before moving out.
2. Don't overlap wheels.
3. Follow the line others are taking into a corner, don't be tempted to think you can see a faster line through and dive down the inside.
4. If you need to get out of the saddle on a climb or due to an acceleration try to use the downstroke of the pedal to lift you. It's hard to explain but a lot of people just stand up and there's a brief lull in their momentum that leads to people touching wheels.
5. Warn riders behind you of any hazards as they won't be able to see them.
6. Ride confidently, don't keep touching the brakes and don't leave small gaps as people will force their way into them.

That's about all there is to it, it is really just common sense but so many riders remove their common sense when they pin their number on. Doing the track stuff beforehand will probably help a bit and you are already demonstrating more awareness of other people than many who race just by asking and realising the impact you can have on others!

wallace_and_gromit

Herzog wrote:

Join a club and get experience of riding safely in a bunch for starters. Many don't and others pay the price...

Worth noting that there's a big difference between riding safely in a bunch and riding to the best of your ability in a race bunch. Club runs and chain gangs will prepare you for safe riding, which is the #1 objective, so well worth doing.

However, in my view, only a race will enable you to practice fighting for your place, moving forwards, positioning etc. and all the other skills that you need to maximise performance, as training situations are too orderly. It's well worth expecting to be at the back in your first race or two, not because you're a bad athlete, but because you've never experienced the need to overtake when the entire track width is blocked by people who won't let you past or in, and other sneaky b*ggers are nipping in front of you as you try and work out what to do!

damocles10

Pross wrote:

Tjgoodhew wrote:

I am somebody that is going to take the plunge and start racing this year.

Other than advice from people on this forum i literally have no idea what i should and shouldn't be doing and it is already making me nervous.

People say the only way to learn is to go and do it but i would definitely welcome some sort of course or accreditation similar to that for track cycling - im actually booked at the Olympic Velodrome over Easter and looking forward to it

My concern is i will make a massive mistake and end up causing a crash and not only hurting myself but hurting others around me. Im guessing this will make me a nervous rider and that in turn makes my riding worse and more likely to cause a crash.

As said above, get used to riding in a group first (you say the only advice you have had is reading this site so I'm assuming you aren't in a club?). It still won't prepare you fully as the group will probably be smaller and the pace will definitely be slower but you will get a feel for being close to other riders.

That said, there really isn't much to riding safely:-

1. Don't make any sudden movements sideways and check your shoulder before moving out.
2. Don't overlap wheels.
3. Follow the line others are taking into a corner, don't be tempted to think you can see a faster line through and dive down the inside.
4. If you need to get out of the saddle on a climb or due to an acceleration try to use the downstroke of the pedal to lift you. It's hard to explain but a lot of people just stand up and there's a brief lull in their momentum that leads to people touching wheels.
5. Warn riders behind you of any hazards as they won't be able to see them.
6. Ride confidently, don't keep touching the brakes and don't leave small gaps as people will force their way into them.


That's about all there is to it, it is really just common sense but so many riders remove their common sense when they pin their number on. Doing the track stuff beforehand will probably help a bit and you are already demonstrating more awareness of other people than many who race just by asking and realising the impact you can have on others!

+1 on that....it can be expensive causing a crash :shock:

Monty Dog

You can't really learn 'race craft' outside of racing. For most beginners, the objective of their first few races is simply to finish - the trouble is many overestimate their abilities and try and be protagonists and get themselves in situations where they may be beyond their limitations and can be a menace to themselves and others.

cycleclinic

Todays road race only my second had good riding standards. It is not all bad. No crashes as far as I know either. double flat did me in. I agree with Monty Race craft can only be learnt by racing and that is why I have started.

buckles

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deadbea/1 ... 4074411153

MartinB2444

As someone mulling over the idea of racing this thread makes disturbing reading. I've done the usual mix of sportive and club rides but racing sounds like a completely different beast. I come from a sailing dinghy racing background. Most local clubs will offer some form of race training for people who have learnt basic sailing skills. This includes help with collision avoidance rules. Without these courses many people would never get into racing because, very sensibly, they don't want to be a liability on the water.

I don't know whether I have the skills to be safe in a closely packed high speed race environment. Whilst I'm all for giving things a go I would be mortified if I was the cause of an accident leading to serious injury of a fellow competitor. So at the moment I'm sticking with pootling but is there anyway to help people like myself to bridge the gap between leisure group riding and racing?

jibberjim

MartinB2444 wrote:

Most local clubs will offer some form of race training for people who have learnt basic sailing skills. This includes help with collision avoidance rules.

...

So at the moment I'm sticking with pootling but is there anyway to help people like myself to bridge the gap between leisure group riding and racing?

You join a club that provides that, or attend one of the courses that provide it. There's not a huge amount depending on where you are, but around London all the big clubs near me have race training and there's people like prime coaching running nights at Hillingdon.

It's not as good as an accreditation scheme, but you should be able to find something. Whereabouts in the country are you?

Pross

Once we get my local circuit built I might start running coaching sessions on there for people looking to get into racing (or just to build their confidence riding in a group). I've always wondered if enough people's ego would allow it to be worthwhile. It would be good to do a 4 week course culminating in a mock race.

MartinB2444

jibberjim wrote:

MartinB2444 wrote:

Most local clubs will offer some form of race training for people who have learnt basic sailing skills. This includes help with collision avoidance rules.

...

So at the moment I'm sticking with pootling but is there anyway to help people like myself to bridge the gap between leisure group riding and racing?

You join a club that provides that, or attend one of the courses that provide it. There's not a huge amount depending on where you are, but around London all the big clubs near me have race training and there's people like prime coaching running nights at Hillingdon.

It's not as good as an accreditation scheme, but you should be able to find something. Whereabouts in the country are you?

I'm in Chesterfield. I've joined Bolsover and District Cycling Club and it's great but as far as I know it doesn't really do anything along these lines.

Pross, that sounds great.

davebelushi

WwllzzZwwiu

MartinB2444 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

MartinB2444 wrote:

Most local clubs will offer some form of race training for people who have learnt basic sailing skills. This includes help with collision avoidance rules.

...

S[*]o at the moment I'm sticking with pootling but is there anyway to help people like myself to bridge the gap between leisure group riding and racing?

You join a club that provides that, or attend one of the courses that provide it. There's not a huge amount depending on where you are, but around London all the big clubs near me have race training and there's people like prime coaching running nights at Hillingdon.

It's not as good as an accreditation scheme, but you should be able to find something. Whereabouts in the country are you?

I'm in Chesterfield. I've joined Bolsover and District Cycling Club and it's great but as far as I know it doesn't really do anything along these lines.

Pross, that sounds great.

antsmithmk

MartinB2444 wrote:

As someone mulling over the idea of racing this thread makes disturbing reading. I've done the usual mix of sportive and club rides but racing sounds like a completely different beast. I come from a sailing dinghy racing background. Most local clubs will offer some form of race training for people who have learnt basic sailing skills. This includes help with collision avoidance rules. Without these courses many people would never get into racing because, very sensibly, they don't want to be a liability on the water.

I don't know whether I have the skills to be safe in a closely packed high speed race environment. Whilst I'm all for giving things a go I would be mortified if I was the cause of an accident leading to serious injury of a fellow competitor. So at the moment I'm sticking with pootling but is there anyway to help people like myself to bridge the gap between leisure group riding and racing?

Martin... Get into cyclocross racing!

racingcondor

TT's, Cross and if you want to get comfortable in a tight group try track. You won't ride track without being taught how to do it without causing chaos (plus it's great fun).

DavidJB

I'm a regular road racer but I'd never ride track!