Jet wash

Pinball72

Took my my bike in for a service this week. The chap in the LBS asked if I jet wash my bike when cleaning (I do) He told me not to next time as it was damaging the bike!! Not sure how..
Any one know why?

rick_chasey

Jet washes are very powerful and can break the seals in bearings etc, which then don't work as effectively.


Professional bike mechanics do it a) because they know what they're doing and b) know the bike has a limited shelf life and that the bearings & seals will be replaced regularly.

Soapy water and a sponge will suffice.

pippi_langsamer-2

I have no probs jet washing my winter bint, but do stand a distance not to blow paint off! And of course, never point the nozzle near headset or bottom bracket bearings.

Winter crud for me necessitates JW.

Summer bike doesn't, so never gets JW'd

wongataa

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

lakesluddite

I use something like this - you can't get the pressure up too high, and it seems to be just about powerful enough to remove most of the cack from the frame. It's also good for getting the underneath of the mudguards free from a build-up of detritus;

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/st ... ber=263586

I did once take my winter workhorse to a jet wash, but even though I was careful around the bearings, I'm sure it buggered up the rear wheel hub to a certain extent.

giant_man

Yes you are damaging your bike! It's not a car.

Just use baby wipes.

VmanF3

Jet washers are the work of the devil. See folk using them on boats all the time, stripping away all the protective layers...even worse seeing numpties blasting the crap out of a teak deck....

High pressure water on precision engineering - the absolute horror!

gubber12345

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

been there done that,never again.soapy water and a garden hose on sprinkle for me now.done the bearings on one of my wheels and after a change of bearings its still not right.avoid the jet washer.

crankycrank

As most everyone has mentioned already the jet wash can be a bit of overkill but if used properly (use lower pressure if possible, don't hit bearings, brake/shifter mechanisms, anywhere there is grease that you don't want to have to replace.) they can be fine. IMO just watch a video of the pro mechanics using a sponge or brush, soapy water and a hose. Quick and easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-fMZ8uE8GY Not the best video but it's the first one I found.

www777

I use a 5 litre pressure washer from B&Q with spoapy water in it then wipe down with a old towel. No issues so far.

pilot_pete

Forget all the hassle of setting up the jet wash and having to be extra careful where you point it.

Just connect the garden hose with a spray nozzle. Turn it on to a gentle spray and rinse the majority of crud off (easily done if you wash your bike as soon as you finish riding rather than leave it all to dry on).

Buy 3 of these


Use one with some automotive shampoo in a bucket of warm water and clean the bike off.

Rinse with your gentle hose spray. Bounce the bike to remove excess water.

Use the second to dry the bike.

Use the third to dry the chain using something like GT85 to remove the water from within the rollers/ links.

Lube the drivetrain using your lube of choice and if required flip your 'chain mitt' to use to remove the excess.

Job done in ten minutes. I usually do this after putting on the hot water boiler for a shower and turning on the bathroom heated floor

Mitts one and two are interchangeable, mitt three will obviously be your drivetrain mitt only. I personally wash mitts one and two occasionally but just chuck mitt three when it is 'full'.

PP

crescent

I used one recently and deliberately avoided the bearings - no problems there. However, I did manage to burst a tyre while I was cleaning the wheels. When I say burst, I mean it actually lifted the rubber off the sidewall. The tyres were old anyway but were still usable, until now. The biggest factor in me not using one next time is that it was rubbish at cleaning the bike anyway, much better with a bucket of soapy water and a sponge.

This link is still the best guide to washing a bike in my opinion. Strangely compelling viewing.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf80DnCgHRQ

dave in swansea

Jet washers are evil!!
Mine bent a spoke on my bike. Cleaning the wheel, started it spinning. I went to slow the wheel by rubbing the lance on the tyre, missed and stuffed it in the spokes.
User error the LBS said.

dennisn

dave in swansea wrote:

Jet washers are evil!!
Mine bent a spoke on my bike. Cleaning the wheel, started it spinning. I went to slow the wheel by rubbing the lance on the tyre, missed and stuffed it in the spokes.
User error the LBS said.

Got to agree with your LBS on that one. If YOU jamb an object in your spokes how is it the object's fault? Or were you being sarcastic?

dennisn

giant man wrote:

Yes you are damaging your bike! It's not a car.

Just use baby wipes.

Not sure I follow your meaning. I have both(car and bike) and have my car pressure washed all the time. No damage to report, no loss of paint. Now my bike(lugged steel) has a paint job and my home pressure washer puts out a pretty good stream. Have yet to notice any paint missing or bearing failure. I will admit that I don't hold the nozzle super close on either car or bike but..... :?

dennisn

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jet washes are very powerful and can break the seals in bearings etc, which then don't work as effectively.


Professional bike mechanics do it a) because they know what they're doing and b) know the bike has a limited shelf life and that the bearings & seals will be replaced regularly.

Soapy water and a sponge will suffice.

So why don't pro mechanics just use "soapy water and a sponge" if it "...will suffice"? :?
I've seen all kinds of people use pressure washers on their motorcycles. These are much more complicated mechanisms than the simple bicycle, they have seals and gaskets everywhere yet they keep on chugging down the rode. I believe that this is all about people wanting to believe that their bicycle is a very complicated, high tech piece of equipment, and involves rocket science. All I can say is give me a break. It's only a bicycle, not the space shuttle. And I believe I've seen them clean the space shuttle with a power washer. It's not a nuclear reactor, it's a simple bicycle and people have been cleaning them with power washers for years.

dennisn

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

You've proven this? "Easily" yet? Or did you just read this on some forum?

PoorInRichfield

I blasted part of the down tube decal off on my old Trek 5200 after getting too close with a pressure washer. I'm assuming that the clear coat was probably already chipped from years of use and that was all the high pressure water needed to get under the decal.

That aside, a pressure washer and some Simple Green makes easy work of cleaning the cassette w/o removing it from the bike.

desweller

dennisn wrote:

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

You've proven this? "Easily" yet? Or did you just read this on some forum?

Standard bearings seals are not designed to resist a significant pressure differential, particularly not the single contact line systems that most industrial bearings use.

It's very difficult to reliably seal a sliding surface, particularly in an high-particulate environment. Labyrinth seals will offer more protection but if you direct the jet of water directly onto them then you're definitely risking lifting the seal off the surface long enough to allow water to pass into the bearing. It's not guaranteed that you will do it, but why would you give your kit a deliberately hard life just to save a few minutes with a rag and bucket of water.

dennisn

DesWeller wrote:

dennisn wrote:

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

You've proven this? "Easily" yet? Or did you just read this on some forum?

Standard bearings seals are not designed to resist a significant pressure differential, particularly not the single contact line systems that most industrial bearings use.

It's very difficult to reliably seal a sliding surface, particularly in an high-particulate environment. Labyrinth seals will offer more protection but if you direct the jet of water directly onto them then you're definitely risking lifting the seal off the surface long enough to allow water to pass into the bearing. It's not guaranteed that you will do it, but why would you give your kit a deliberately hard life just to save a few minutes with a rag and bucket of water.

I only say all this because I doubt that there is any real evidence of this happening. Sort of an urban legend and people wanting to believe that their bikes are extremely hi-tech items.
I suppose that IF you held a pressure washer against a bearing seal for 10 or 15 minutes that some water might get in?
Once again I would ask what about motorcycles and cars and such? These all get lots and lots of pressure wash action yet I don't hear about anyone having to replace bearings in them.
Not really sure why people think this way. Why do people view bikes as fragile things? All that money paid out and it's so fragile that it can't withstand a pressure wash? Why would you buy something like that? :roll:

desweller

dennisn wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

dennisn wrote:

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

You've proven this? "Easily" yet? Or did you just read this on some forum?

Standard bearings seals are not designed to resist a significant pressure differential, particularly not the single contact line systems that most industrial bearings use.

It's very difficult to reliably seal a sliding surface, particularly in an high-particulate environment. Labyrinth seals will offer more protection but if you direct the jet of water directly onto them then you're definitely risking lifting the seal off the surface long enough to allow water to pass into the bearing. It's not guaranteed that you will do it, but why would you give your kit a deliberately hard life just to save a few minutes with a rag and bucket of water.

I only say all this because I doubt that there is any real evidence of this happening. Sort of an urban legend and people wanting to believe that their bikes are extremely hi-tech items.
I suppose that IF you held a pressure washer against a bearing seal for 10 or 15 minutes that some water might get in?
Once again I would ask what about motorcycles and cars and such? These all get lots and lots of pressure wash action yet I don't hear about anyone having to replace bearings in them.
Not really sure why people think this way. Why do people view bikes as fragile things? All that money paid out and it's so fragile that it can't withstand a pressure wash? Why would you buy something like that? :roll:

You're not comparing like for like. Bicycle designers use off-the-shelf bearings designed for industrial applications. Only a handful of players in the industry have the sort of resources required to carry out authentic R&D and manufacture in tribology. Automotive OEMs have unimaginably vast R&D and manufacturing resources by comparison.

Bicycles - especially racing bikes - ARE fragile. They are designed with a narrower margin of safety compared to automotive products because the effect of adding weight is to reduce performance and make it harder to compete in the market place. Some trends aimed at reducing cost - Hollowtech, industrial bearings in wheels etc. have contributed to making modern bikes less strong than their forbears.

NB I am an automotive engineer so I have a little insight into the differences between the two industries.

dennisn

DesWeller wrote:

Bicycle designers use off-the-shelf bearings designed for industrial applications.
Bicycles - especially racing bikes - ARE fragile. They are designed with a narrower margin of safety compared to automotive products because the effect of adding weight is to reduce performance and make it harder to compete in the market place. Some trends aimed at reducing cost - Hollowtech, industrial bearings in wheels etc. have contributed to making modern bikes less strong than their forbears.

OK, they use off the shelf bearings? If this is done to reduce costs then surely it's no problem for someone to cheaply replace them. After all people spend thousands on carbon everything. A 10 or 20 dollar bearing is pocket change for people into showoff / bling shiny stuff or serious racers. And who says off the shelf or industrial type bearings are junk?

As for "fragile" I still say that this is what people want to believe about their bikes. If it's "fragile" then it must be high quality. And yet people ride these things for years without
major issue. Doesn't equate to "fragile" to me.

smoggysteve

DesWeller wrote:

dennisn wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

dennisn wrote:

wongataa wrote:

You can easily wash the grease out of bearings with a jet wash. That's how you cause issues with a jet wash.

You've proven this? "Easily" yet? Or did you just read this on some forum?

Standard bearings seals are not designed to resist a significant pressure differential, particularly not the single contact line systems that most industrial bearings use.

It's very difficult to reliably seal a sliding surface, particularly in an high-particulate environment. Labyrinth seals will offer more protection but if you direct the jet of water directly onto them then you're definitely risking lifting the seal off the surface long enough to allow water to pass into the bearing. It's not guaranteed that you will do it, but why would you give your kit a deliberately hard life just to save a few minutes with a rag and bucket of water.

I only say all this because I doubt that there is any real evidence of this happening. Sort of an urban legend and people wanting to believe that their bikes are extremely hi-tech items.
I suppose that IF you held a pressure washer against a bearing seal for 10 or 15 minutes that some water might get in?
Once again I would ask what about motorcycles and cars and such? These all get lots and lots of pressure wash action yet I don't hear about anyone having to replace bearings in them.
Not really sure why people think this way. Why do people view bikes as fragile things? All that money paid out and it's so fragile that it can't withstand a pressure wash? Why would you buy something like that? :roll:

You're not comparing like for like. Bicycle designers use off-the-shelf bearings designed for industrial applications. Only a handful of players in the industry have the sort of resources required to carry out authentic R&D and manufacture in tribology. Automotive OEMs have unimaginably vast R&D and manufacturing resources by comparison.

Bicycles - especially racing bikes - ARE fragile. They are designed with a narrower margin of safety compared to automotive products because the effect of adding weight is to reduce performance and make it harder to compete in the market place. Some trends aimed at reducing cost - Hollowtech, industrial bearings in wheels etc. have contributed to making modern bikes less strong than their forbears.

NB I am an automotive engineer so I have a little insight into the differences between the two industries.

As far as cars go. Any bearing seal most likely found on wheel bearings , drive shafts, gearboxes are covered up by big rubber boots ir are enclosed inside bigger components so are less open for water and dirt ingress. If anyone has had said boot split on a car and seen how quickly the bearing can fail with ultimately larger loads placed upon it its no surprise a jet of water can damage a bike. Also, anyone who rides on Shimano hubs will know that unless you gap them properly they can p1ss grease out and let water in well too easy.

dennisn

SmoggySteve wrote:

Also, anyone who rides on Shimano hubs will know that unless you gap them properly they can p1ss grease out and let water in well too easy.

IF this is true, and I doubt it, why wouldn't, you "gap them properly"? :roll:
That's like saying "I'm a bad mechanic, but that's not the reason my bike is falling apart".

smoggysteve

dennisn wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Also, anyone who rides on Shimano hubs will know that unless you gap them properly they can p1ss grease out and let water in well too easy.

IF this is true, and I doubt it, why wouldn't, you "gap them properly"? :roll:
That's like saying "I'm a bad mechanic, but that's not the reason my bike is falling apart".

Shimano hubs can be opened and greased and resealed. Over tighten then and they don't roll properly. Not enough and grease escapes and water gets in. If you have never done it how can you judge either way? BTW, I personally do gap them correctly but I have seen many cases where they are not even by LBS so doubt it all you like it happens.

smoggysteve

And before I forget it, BB30 cranks. Looked down at a mates bike a few months back. His non drive side crank arm was covered in grease because the allen key socket had not been tight enough. Grease got out, water got in and bearing got rusty. BB30 is pretty tonk anyway but ut shows how easy it can happen.

slowbike

It is pretty easy to seal bearings - look at propeller shafts in the marine environment - but that's what they're designed for - to keep water out and grease in ...
Bike bearings are generally not designed for such treatment and a direct hit with a high pressure hose can force water in where it wouldn't normally reach.

Use of a jetwash on the bike needs to be done with care - a wide spray setting and keeping the lance a reasonable distance from the bike is the best way to achieve that.

I occasionally use the pressure washer on the bike - normally only if I've got it out for the car as well - and then it's used carefully - that said - high pressure on the cassette does clean it up quickly and efficiently ...

dennisn

SmoggySteve wrote:

dennisn wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Also, anyone who rides on Shimano hubs will know that unless you gap them properly they can p1ss grease out and let water in well too easy.

IF this is true, and I doubt it, why wouldn't, you "gap them properly"? :roll:
That's like saying "I'm a bad mechanic, but that's not the reason my bike is falling apart".

Shimano hubs can be opened and greased and resealed. Over tighten then and they don't roll properly. Not enough and grease escapes and water gets in. If you have never done it how can you judge either way? BTW, I personally do gap them correctly but I have seen many cases where they are not even by LBS so doubt it all you like it happens.

Who said I hadn't serviced Shimano hubs? I've got 5 or 6 of them. No problems, no rust, no loss of grease, no water intrusion(that I know of). I never said that water can't get in, so yes it happens, but I would remind you that pretty much anything that is not assembled correctly most likely won't do the job that's required.

Millidog

Would you jet wash your wife ??

smoggysteve

Millidog wrote:

Would you jet wash your wife ??

YES

pblakeney

The most important tip on this thread is not to bother arguing with Dennisn.