buying advice - old hopes or something newer

rickbst170

Hi all,

Hopes are expensive. Always have been and continue to be. But they are good.

If I had, say, £100 to spend on a second hand setup should I go for older hope brakes (m4 mono/mini) or another brand from 4 years more recent? Are newer Avids/Hayes/deore better than older hopes?

Cheers guys.

Rick

trigger118

I would go new shimano all the way,

You might have more luck with this in the buying advice forum though mate

rickbst170

Cheers mate. CRC have some good deals on Hayes stroker grams at the minute. Or I go for second hand deore/xt brakes. But I've found a set of hope m4 calipers with C2 pro levers for 40 quid! The question therefore is are new Hayes strokers better than 8 year old M4s, and worth twice the price?

Good point, I even wrote buying advice in the title! Can I move the thread or does it need admin? Ta.

trigger118

a few to choose from on this page:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/s?q= ... es&ss=2434

bear in mind that deore/SLX/XT are the same brake, you just get more spangly colours, less weight and extra features like reach adjust with your extra money (I am assuming you can keep your current rotors?)

I have some 2010 Hayes Rydes on my XC bike and they've been trouble free so I cant really complain but they feel very wooden compared to the two different Shimano models I have (Deore and Saint, both 2013).

In terms of the 8 year old M4s I have no idea, I havent been riding 8 years and never owned a set of Hopes!

You will need a mod to move the topic as fair as I know.

fizik

I'd take s/h hopes any day. They are ultra reliable and very easy to maintain/bleed etc. Try get some with braided hoses too. Mine are way more consistent than any of my friends brakes who run avid xo, shimano slx/xt. Had hayes strokers and they were OK, but nowhere near as good as the old HFX 9's I had. Currently running 2005 mono minis on my BFe, braided hoses 203/160 rotors.

cooldad

Hope are overpriced, and a bit elderly now - nowhere near the value of new Shimano.

And all hoses are braided - if you mean external steel braiding it's heavy and pointless.

fizik

Externally braided hoses arent pointless, you can feel a slight difference in power and its not until you have crashed and bent the hose to impossible angles when you realise normal hoses would have split and ended your ride. New Hope vs New Shimano, I would agree with Cooldad price wise, but having tried them back to back I honestly think my old but well set up hopes are every bit as powerful as the slx brakes. Can't argue that the power of the slx is great given the price.

rockmonkeysc

New Shimanos would be my choice. Hopes were good but overpriced but they have fallen behind the latest shimanos.

cooldad

fizik wrote:

Externally braided hoses arent pointless, you can feel a slight difference in power and its not until you have crashed and bent the hose to impossible angles when you realise normal hoses would have split and ended your ride.

No, you can't. You might think you can, but you can't. 'Normal' hoses are braided kevlar. If it can stop a bullet, it's tough enough for me.

fizik

Yes thanks for telling me what I can and can't feel cooldad.. Just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean others can't or won't. I am not saying its a huge difference but I suspect its like tubeless, some people notice a difference, others don't - it also depends where you ride and how you ride. Having split ordinary brake hoses in entanglements with trees - which depending on the trails you are riding can end a ride and then having similar accidents whilst braided I can definitely say the durability of the goodridge type hoses is worth the extremely small weight penalty. (as you may figure I like trees 8) ) I don't think I would go out straight away and upgrade a new set of brakes with them, but if I needed to get new hoses for any reason (changing frame etc) then I would go down the steel braided route every time, and likewise if buying s/h brakes I had the choice between them I would go the same way.

To the OP the only thing to watch buying old hopes is the caliper mounting as the early ones are not post mount type and vary in terms of what rotor they are spaced for, my front one is for a 180mm, the rear for a 160. You can of course get adapters.

cooldad

If you say so. But unless you have done a back to back test with identical bikes over the same terrain, I'll put it down to the bling factor.

Kowalski675

cooldad wrote:

If you say so. But unless you have done a back to back test with identical bikes over the same terrain, I'll put it down to the bling factor.

I'd be inclined to agree. MTB brakes don't operate at pressures high enough for externally braided hoses to be of any benefit in performance - classic placebo effect in action, IMHO. I'd be willing to put money on him not being able to feel any difference in a blind comparison test.

I doubt there's many people on here who could ride hard enough to need more than a new set of Shimano SLX, and I'd much rather have those than a potentially worn out set of second hand brakes.

cooldad

Kowalski675 wrote:

I'd be willing to put money on him not being able to feel any difference in a blindfold comparison test.

I'd pay to see that.

Kowalski675

cooldad wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

I'd be willing to put money on him not being able to feel any difference in a blindfold comparison test.

I'd pay to see that.

Yeah, it would be rather funny. I was thinking more along the lines of covering up the brake hoses so he didn't know which was which, but blindfolding him would be a whole lot more amusing.

The Rookie

fizik wrote:

Yes thanks for telling me what I can and can't feel cooldad.. .

Perhaps for just one second (or nano second) consider how it would happen, you generate hydraulic pressure at the lever, it travels down the hose and the calliper responds.

Pressure at one end of the hose = the same at the other, if it does not there is fluid flow until it does.

So where does the extra power come from? The Power of belief I guess (I paid therefore it does).

Giraffoto

Dragging this back to the original topic, for the best performance/pound I'd get new Shimano 615 Deores. Partly because it's new and so covered by a warranty, partly because you know whether it's been subjected to any abuse or not, but mainly because they're all the brake you'll ever need unless you're Downhill racing .

rockmonkeysc

Giraffoto wrote:

Dragging this back to the original topic, for the best performance/pound I'd get new Shimano 615 Deores. Partly because it's new and so covered by a warranty, partly because you know whether it's been subjected to any abuse or not, but mainly because they're all the brake you'll ever need unless you're Downhill racing .

To be honest I would be happy to race downhill with deores. They would only suffer braking from high speed to really low speed quickly.

poah

buy SLX - hope are just more expensive and not as nice to bleed. they also are a total pain with loads of shifters too.

lawman

Shimano all the way. The new new Deores are fantastic. Just to highlight how expensive even second hand hope brakes are, I sold two sets of hope brakes, an '07 set of silver mono mini's and 2011, limited edition x2's, one set with standard hope rotors the other without and bought two brand new set of the latest XT m785's and a set of Ice Tech rotors with the money i got from the hopes and ended up £90, yes 90 quid, up, so I bought some carbon bars with my profits... People will pay silly money for a name they think is the best, reminds me of another northern bike company actually...

fizik

The OP was saying he could get a set of M4's for 40 quid hence my suggestion, it is also common to find them with braided hoses, hence my other suggestion. They could be a bargain if they are in good condition. I agree Deores are good brakes though, got them for my dad, he loves them but the levers aren't the neatest. Very impressive for the price regardless. I have been using my mono minis for a while, and before I went braided they were kept in good nick and bled when required, so as a back to back I am qualified to say I can notice the difference using identical pads and conditions, I wouldn't mind a blindfolded test but I have only just got my teeth fixed after the last one . I am not going into the argument why some feel a difference but pressure at the lever only equals pressure at the caliper if the volume of the system remains the same....One thing that can't be argued is that the durability of externally braided hoses is by far better with less tendency to kink or puncture in crashes. I am not a hope fanboi, and have had a fair bit of trouble with their machined parts, have seen a hub where the 6xbolt holes for the disc weren't equally spaced! but for me these particular brakes have lasted ages and given good service, if I could buy them for 40 quid I definitely would! If I was to buy new though I wouldn't/couldn't afford to buy hope, mine came on a bike I got dirt cheap second hand. Hope that helps.

rickbst170

Thanks for all the useful info here (new vs old, hope vs other, braided for durability etc). Useful in helping make a decision. Missed out on the original ones I was asking about, but will use the info above to make an informed decision about whatever I do buy. Cheers. Rick.

dhooper7

trigger118 wrote:

I would go new shimano all the way

I've got XT and love them. Huge upgrade from my Elixir R SL's

rickbst170

Anyone know if there's been much performance change between older and newer xt's? Say m765 vs m775 vs m785? If m785s are 140 quid a set, and m775 are 60 quid, is there twice the performance for the doubled price?

cooldad

Yes.

cooldad

But just get Deore for half that, just as powerful, a bit heavier and you need an allen key to adjust the reach. No big deal.

rickbst170

Perfect. Thanks all. So new deore are better than old xt, old hope are serviceable but quality is questionable based on age, care, usage etc, and braided hoses are a bonus if part of the deal. Ta.

cooldad

rickbst170 wrote:

Perfect. Thanks all. So new deore are better than old xt,

IMHO yes, I have both

rickbst170 wrote:

and braided hoses are a bonus if part of the deal. Ta.

No, pointless and add weight. You don't need armour plated cables.

The Rookie

fizik wrote:

. I am not going into the argument why some feel a difference but pressure at the lever only equals pressure at the calliper if the volume of the system remains the same.....

Handy that you've changed the laws of physics to make fluid compressible to suite your argument, well done....

In the real world of course, fluid is incompressible so the volume does stay the same.

The only slight change when using braided is IF it does reduce hose expansion (and that is far from certain anyway) then with a positive servo brakes you would get a very small increase in the servo effect, on a negative (so badly designed lever) you may get a small benefit, but we are talking 1 or 2 percent at most.

Back to "I've paid therefore it is" I think?

If you are a full on downhiller and risked external damage to a hose through impact then they may be worthwhile.

Giraffoto

The Rookie wrote:

If you are a full on downhiller and risked external damage to a hose through impact then they may be worthwhile.

Having cut the non-braided variety on a couple of occasions in the workshop, I'd have thought that any impact that could damage the hose would put an end to the day's riding anyway. It's very tough stuff.

The Rookie

I agree, but it is 'possible'.....

fizik

The Rookie wrote:

I agree, but it is 'possible'.....

I know what you are saying Rookie, and I accept some may not notice a difference. But in the real world all fluids are compressible, and the spongeyness at the end of the lever travel (unless you have air or high temps in the system) is a result of hoses expanding which in turn is a result of the compressed fluid. If you can reduce this spongeyness you can achieve a harder bite, but this may come at the cost of modulation which may not always be a good thing for all - I personally like the on off kind of feel. Newer brakes I am aware come with better hoses, some even braided of the non blingy variety, in which case of course there would be no benefit to changing hoses to externally braided types, it all depends on what you have at the end of the day and what kind of lever feel you like but my brake hoses were approaching 10 yrs old and looking worn so it made sense to me and had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I wanted to look enduro :P