Time trial wheels?

Rhigos Boy

After riding with my club for a couple of years I've decided to get stuck into Time Trialling. However, I want to see how I get on before spending a fortune on disc wheels, specialist bikes or a funny helmet. Therefore I intend to use my trusty carbon Ribble road bike with clip on tri-bars and also upgrade my wheels. I have narrowed down my choice of wheelset (obviously based on a budget) to the following:

Fulcrum Racing 3
American Classic Victory 30
Mavic Kysirium Elite

So my question is which of the above would do the best job? I've got £500 and I weigh 90kgs. :?

Grill

The Elites are the least aero of those, but TBH none of those are going to make a noticeable difference. I'd go with one of the following options:
1. Run whatcha brung. As there's no real benefit just stick to your current wheelset.
2. Blow the money on nice handbuilts. Use this option if you need a new wheelset.
3. Go deep section. Best option if you're serious about TTing.

supermurph09

Check out Planet X, they are in budget.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/c/q/wheels/tt- ... lon-wheels

ironhorse

Main question is, what wheels are you currently running?

sloppyschleckonds

Grill wrote:

3. Go deep section. Best option if you're serious about TTing.

This

ai_1

Did you perhaps mean Mavic Cosmic Elites rather than Mavic Ksyrium Elites?
The Cosmics are alloy semi-aero wheels but the Ksyriums are light low profile wheels more aimed at climbing.
If it's the Cosmics you're considering then the Fulcrum Racing Quattros are another similar option.
However as Grill said it may be a case that neither will make a significant difference and you're better to wait and get proper deep sections later if you decide you like TTing.

DiscoBoy

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPPXPC8210 ... 1-wheelset

Sorted.

cycleclinic

If you are doing TT's and want TT wheels do it properly with deep 88mm rims deeper on the rear if you can and very low spoke count. Custom drilling rims are available down to 16H from corima and far eastern suppliers. Couple those to low spoke cout hubs and you are good to go. They will be low mileage wheels so spoke life is ot a big consideration.

For my own TT wheels I have laid my hands on 12H DA 7700 hubs new. I was hoping to source some 12H carbon rims from somewhere deep ones and build them up. Given they would be used only on short 25mile or less TT's they would be perfect. Also look for rim that are "toroidal" as they are better when the yaw angle is greater than 0.

Rhigos Boy

Thanks guys, the advice is appreciated. I'm currently riding around on bog standard Mavic Aksium S wheels that are bomb proof but quite heavy. I must admit the Planet X wheelset in the above link from DiscoBoy look fantastic value. I hadn't appreciated that you could get a decent set of deep rim wheels for that kind of price. I'm going to check them out.

mallorcajeff

Deep section planet x secondhand on ebay £300 all day long and they are better than a lot of wheels i have used for time trialling that cost three times as much. Pretty strong too. Im currently using a 82 front and a 101 rear with a disc cover for training and i can hold 26-29moh on the flats easy with these on once wound up.

blablablacksheep

personally id get some elites. Reasons why.

1:Sticking "aero "wheels onto your road bike is going to do diddly squat, you need a speed of over 21mph -25mph for them to even take effect.

2: Very few TTs are flat, seriously ive found about 2 so far that are flat and 1 of them was on a bloody motorway!

3: you will enjoy a nice pair of elites over some deep section wheels you rarely use maybe once a month .

I have elites and they are great, they are tough training wheels which you CAN race on, and those who complain about them being not aero, tell me this ...how much do aero wheels make up for speed its something like 10% of overall drag, and when you take into fact body takes up most drag, it works into something like 10% of 10% :roll:

Get Elites as they are great wheels, dont get wheels for TT until you have a awesome fitness level and a pointy helmet, and shoe covers, skinsuit,time trial bike, and finally a proper TT position....then spend £500 on some.. 8)

overlord2

Personally I would look to buy a second hand frame and put some crappier wheels on sub £100.

You will find clip-on bars are utter rubbish they dont make you aero they just put your arms out in front. In effect they make your position worse.

Or another alternative is just to put some wheels on your good road bike that you can then transfer to a TT bike if you get one.

ai_1

Overlord2 wrote:

You will find clip-on bars are utter rubbish they dont make you aero they just put your arms out in front. In effect they make your position worse....

That's nonsense.
Obviously, how you set them up is critical. However clip on bars do provide the ability to get a much more aerodynamic position if set up sensibly.

supermurph09

blablablacksheep wrote:

personally id get some elites. Reasons why.

1:Sticking "aero "wheels onto your road bike is going to do diddly squat, you need a speed of over 21mph -25mph for them to even take effect.

)

But surely if you are doing TT's you'll be at that speed? :? Half decent 10 mile TT on a road bike would be done in 25 minutes which is 24mph.

ai_1

blablablacksheep wrote:

personally id get some elites. Reasons why.

1:Sticking "aero "wheels onto your road bike is going to do diddly squat, you need a speed of over 21mph -25mph for them to even take effect.....

The impact of any aerodynamic changes be they rider position, helmet, wheels or anything else increase as the speed does and it's not a linear relationship - everything else being equal (which it's usually not ) drag will increase by the square of the airspeed. There's no magic speed at which aero improvements suddenly "take effect" unless it's some Reynolds no specific feature.
Having said that it is true that the benefits are less significant at lower speeds contrary to a lot of marketing nonsense that would have you believe slower riders gain more because they're on the course for longer (you'd really need to qualify the hell out of that claim to make it stand up).

LegendLust

Rhigos Boy wrote:

After riding with my club for a couple of years I've decided to get stuck into Time Trialling. However, I want to see how I get on before spending a fortune on disc wheels, specialist bikes or a funny helmet. Therefore I intend to use my trusty carbon Ribble road bike with clip on tri-bars and also upgrade my wheels. I have narrowed down my choice of wheelset (obviously based on a budget) to the following:

Fulcrum Racing 3
American Classic Victory 30
Mavic Kysirium Elite

So my question is which of the above would do the best job? I've got £500 and I weigh 90kgs. :?

If I were you I would save your £500 and put it towards getting a 2nd hand TT bike. The wheels you have chosen won't do much for your TT times, whereas a proper TT bike would.

Take a look on here for 2nd hand TT bikes http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... wforum=116

BenderRodriguez

Ai_1 wrote:

Overlord2 wrote:

You will find clip-on bars are utter rubbish they dont make you aero they just put your arms out in front. In effect they make your position worse....

That's nonsense. Obviously, how you set them up is critical. However clip on bars do provide the ability to get a much more aerodynamic position if set up sensibly.

Agreed. I would say that fitting 'tri bars' is probably the biggest single improvement to your aerodynamics that you can make, easily worth a minute in a '10'. They are certainly one of the most cost-effective. Because you are resting on your forearms you don't have to support your weight as with a traditional 'bent arms on the drops' position either, so the position is much easier to hold and demands less oxygen.

As to wheels, I would go for the Planet X ones, though perhaps with a 50 mm front matched to an 82 mm rear so they are still useable when there is a bit of wind about. Also, whatever you get, be sure to get tubs as a pair of good flexible tubs with a thin latex tube are worth perhaps 10 watts over a clincher, possibly more over a rough road surface or if the clincher is run with a butyl tube.

ugo.santalucia

Most people who get into aero equipment can't even ride on the drops... I hardly ever see anybody riding on the drops these days... they've made these STI levers so big that you can spend a lot of time on them... but you're not very aerodynamic, unless you slam the stem down to the bottom, which nobody does.

Realistically how much time you spend on the drops? I am training myself to avoid the hoods and I can tell you it's a new world of pains... hamstrings, buttocks, neck, shoulders... but it is undoubtedly more aerodynamic and faster... and looks like you can still bend, which at my age is pretty cool... 8)

Ride on the drops FFS!

Anonymous

My neck gets sore if I am tearing around on the drops (I have deep drops and slammed stem).

I find (though anecdotal evidence only) that I can easily get 1mph extra if I rest my forearms either side of my stem with no/little extra perceived effort.
I also find I can really far forwards on the saddle and engage the glutes more, which tends to help

Grill

coriordan wrote:

My neck gets sore if I am tearing around on the drops (I have deep drops and slammed stem).

I find (though anecdotal evidence only) that I can easily get 1mph extra if I rest my forearms either side of my stem with no/little extra perceived effort.
I also find I can really far forwards on the saddle and engage the glutes more, which tends to help

Moving the saddle/position further forward engages the quads whereas as rearward will recruit the glutes...

Anonymous

Oops. I think it just feels like that perhaps - as if I get some extra energy out of nowhere when I get right forward on the saddle so I am perched on the tip.

chrisw12

Rhigos boy, are you from Rhigos or just using the title for some other reason?

You say you're in a club, if so I'd try to get advice off the club members as some of the advice here is bit of a wind up.

marcusjb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Most people who get into aero equipment can't even ride on the drops... I hardly ever see anybody riding on the drops these days... they've made these STI levers so big that you can spend a lot of time on them... but you're not very aerodynamic, unless you slam the stem down to the bottom, which nobody does.

Ride on the drops FFS!

I see loads of people on the drops on my commute into town. On the drops, head down, with saddle too low - they look well pro.

Grill

chrisw12 wrote:

Rhigos boy, are you from Rhigos or just using the title for some other reason?

You say you're in a club, if so I'd try to get advice off the club members as some of the advice here is bit of a wind up.

Good point. What club are you in? Merthyr CC by chance?

ai_1

I did a few sprint duathlons last year. The cycle leg was about 20km for each. I spent no time on the hoods. I was in the drops for most of the time with a switch to forearms on the tops for short periods to rest my hands and shoulders which get a little tight after long periods in the drops. This approach is significantly faster than riding on the hoods as ugo says.

I believe clip-ons will gain me a little more speed if I can get used to them.
I quite like the forearms on tops position except that it doesn't give much control so it's only for straight sections of reasonably smooth road with relatively little traffic. Also the bars aren't very comfy under your arms after the first couple of minutes. So I reckoned clip-ons would give a similar position but correct the control and comfort deficits. I got an inexpensive pair of Deda Parabolica Duo bars late last year and tried them for a couple of short rides. They'll take some getting used to. I have wide shoulders and a broad chest and I find it difficult to pull my elbows in enough to position my forearms comfortably on the pads even with the bars quite widely spaced. I also have a bit of a problem with neck flexibility from an old injury so may have to accept a higher than ideal position so I can see where I'm going.

cougie

Clip on tri bars are better than riding on the hoods and even better than on the drops.

You'll be narrower for a start - so less drag.

When I first got them when they came out - it seemed like 1 - 2mph better speed for the same effort.

I'd get some deep rim wheels - and think about a wheel cover for the rear too. Plenty of choices out there.

I'm sure you do get benefits from them at TT speeds. You don't need to be Pro.

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

My neck gets sore if I am tearing around on the drops (I have deep drops and slammed stem).

I find (though anecdotal evidence only) that I can easily get 1mph extra if I rest my forearms either side of my stem with no/little extra perceived effort.
I also find I can really far forwards on the saddle and engage the glutes more, which tends to help

You are too young to be sore... MTFU!

Yes, the Cancellara technique is cool and pretty fast, but hardly ideal in traffic

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Most people who get into aero equipment can't even ride on the drops... I hardly ever see anybody riding on the drops these days... they've made these STI levers so big that you can spend a lot of time on them... but you're not very aerodynamic, unless you slam the stem down to the bottom, which nobody does.

Realistically how much time you spend on the drops? I am training myself to avoid the hoods and I can tell you it's a new world of pains... hamstrings, buttocks, neck, shoulders... but it is undoubtedly more aerodynamic and faster... and looks like you can still bend, which at my age is pretty cool... 8)

Ride on the drops FFS!

Mmmm. Riding on hoods can be aero. If you get in the position as if you were riding hard on the drops, but then hold the hoods, your arms are parallel to the ground, meaning less frontal area to your arms. Riding in the drops results in your arms presenting more of a frontal area.

Ask yourself why Pro's when riding hard on the front of the peloton or break rest their arms on the handlebars?