Avid Elixir 3 hose cut and full re bleed advice needed

alexthebear

Hoping to get some advice before I start work on my Avid elixir 3s. I have a few jobs that need doing on them and as I have never worked on hydraulic brakes before I want to make sure I'm clued up before I start.

Before I get to the re bleed as stated in the title the front hose needs cutting down by an inch or 2 (maybe more but I'll know that once I get started). Just watched this and it mentions not to sqeeze the lever whilst the hose is off otherwise you'll drain the master cylinder. Is this the case even though I want to drain all the fluid from my brakes as it's been in there 3years? I'm going to be buying some new cable cutters for my tool box, anyone got any recommendations? Anything else I need to look out for?

As I've said the oil in my brakes has been there from new (the bike was sent out in May 2011 so it's a minimum of 3yrs old) so I want to replace all the oil for new, roughly how much is going to be needed for a complete re bleed? I read somewhere that if the oil is particularly contaminated it needs to be flushed through twice, is this the case? Again if there is something that I need to be aware of whilst doing this please all info is gratefully accepted.

Off to look for the cheapest supplier of dot 5.1 oil and an Avid bleed kit so cheers in advance for any replys

cooldad

Best bleed kit - Epic, and you can get fluid off them, otherwise Halfords.

alexthebear

cooldad wrote:

Best bleed kit - Epic

Nice one thanks

alexthebear

An Epic bleed kit for £13 and this oil for £5 is exactly what I was after cheers

Cookeh

I can second Epic bleed solutions' kit. A third of the price and worked perfectly on my Elixir 1s. The Dot 5.1 they supply will be more than adequate for a full bleed - my 'normal' bleed used about a fifth of the bottle.
For a full bleed I would just bleed it several times, rather than attempting to empty the system entirely then refilling - sounds like a great way of introducing a tonne of air to the system.

Cookeh

alexthebear wrote:

An Epic bleed kit for £13 and this oil for £5 is exactly what I was after cheers

Just get the £14.99 kit from Epic with the DOT fluid included - more than enough in there for a full bleed, and buy you a pint.

alexthebear

That bottle looks so tiny lol Ok I'll go with the 15 quid kit, still an absolute bargain

Cookeh by bleeding several times will the old and new fluid not just get mixed in together thus defeating the whole process?

maringirl

When you bleed the brake you will push all the old fluid out. Might be worth while just pushing a syringe full through then doing a proper bleed with fresh new fluid to make sure.

alexthebear

maringirl wrote:

When you bleed the brake you will push all the old fluid out. Might be worth while just pushing a syringe full through then doing a proper bleed with fresh new fluid to make sure.

I had thought of this while reading the Epic website's "how to bleed" page, tis good stuff there so given that I'll want to push through a full syringe through front and back before I do the proper bleed will that 100ml bottle be enough?

Cookeh

Yup, as I said, my 'normal' bleed only required ~20ml. Yes, there will be a certain degree of mixing for the first one or two flushes, but given how little the system will hold after that you should be bleeding entirely new fluid.

alexthebear

Cookeh wrote:

Yup, as I said, my 'normal' bleed only required ~20ml. Yes, there will be a certain degree of mixing for the first one or two flushes, but given how little the system will hold after that you should be bleeding entirely new fluid.

I'll do that then cheers, missed the bit where you mentioned only using 1/5 of the bottle on a normal bleed. Even if I use the whole bottle it's at no great cost. Cheers for your info

Once the process of getting the old oil out, new in and bled properly how often do you repeat the process? Is it just a case of as and when it feels like needing doing or do you stick to a routine?

Just found that Epic sell their full kit on eBay for £13 lol BARGAIN

apreading

Do you really need to empty out the old fluid? Does it go bad or something? I have only ever bled mine to remove air and pressurise the system properly.

alexthebear

apreading wrote:

Do you really need to empty out the old fluid? Does it go bad or something? I have only ever bled mine to remove air and pressurise the system properly.

Yes it needs to be changed as non-silicone-based brake fluid is strongly hygroscopic, meaning that it naturally absorbs water from the humidity in the air.

cooldad

Except the system is sealed, unlike car systems, so it's minimal. I tend to pump the stuff in until the fluid coming out is clear and clean looking.
So don't empty and refill, just shove it through.

alexthebear

cooldad wrote:

Except the system is sealed, unlike car systems, so it's minimal.

Very true but given that it's not been changed or even topped up at all in over 3yrs I'm guessing there will be more water in there than I want

I'll be doing as suggested and just bleed normally until the fluid is clear. Cheers for your help

cooldad

The brakes on my main bike haven't been touched since they came out of the factory - 2008, and work perfectly. No squidgyness at all.
My take on brakes is less is more.

apreading

Well you learn something new every day... Maybe one day I will need to do mine, think I will wait until they tell me that they need it though.

alexthebear

I only noticed mine were soft when I jumped on my mates Stumpjumper and his were nice and crisp in comparison, I've realigned the calipers and although that made a bit of a difference I feel they could benefit from a bleed. Cooldad what brakes are you running? That fit and leave be type sounds like my kind of brakes

The Rookie

alexthebear wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Except the system is sealed, unlike car systems, so it's minimal.

Very true but given that it's not been changed or even topped up at all in over 3yrs I'm guessing there will be more water in there than I want

How or where did the water get in, using a file hidden in a cake? Put simply it can't get in unless you have a leak, and you'll see the fluid coming out as well!

cooldad

alexthebear wrote:

I only noticed mine were soft when I jumped on my mates Stumpjumper and his were nice and crisp in comparison, I've realigned the calipers and although that made a bit of a difference I feel they could benefit from a bleed. Cooldad what brakes are you running? That fit and leave be type sounds like my kind of brakes

That particular set are Hayes Stroker Trail, which lots of people slag off, but I also have new Deores, old XTs and some random Hopes on various bikes. Only the XTs (10+) years old have been bled in that last five years.

I stay in practice sorting out other people's after they had a go 'solving' random problems. Avids are a pet hate.

Cookeh

With regards to repeating the bleed, as it feels necessary. I didn't bleed the brakes once on my old bike, but my new bike isn't even a year old and has already had them bled as they felt so spongy and unresponsive until the level was crushing my fingers haha.

alexthebear

cooldad wrote:

Avids are a pet hate.

Before I bought my bike my mechanic mate told me to stay clear of any bike with Avids on for this reason :roll: I know I'll get linched for that but he said that this would happen and that I'd be forever getting them aligned.

Having read the comments provided I'm now not so sure that a bleed is going to be the best solution, they are no where near as bad as what Cookeh said his were so I'm going to check the pads tomorrow and get the calipers alligned by someone who's better qualified than myself and see what the outcome of that is.

Think some new deore or slx are on the cards, it is my birthday next month if anyone is feeling generous

Cookeh

Caliper alignment is a cinch - paying someone to do it for you is an absolute waste of money.

Oh, and get rid of the wife, then you can afford new brakes

alexthebear

Cookeh wrote:

Caliper alignment is a cinch - paying someone to do it for you is an absolute waste of money.

Oh, and get rid of the wife, then you can afford new brakes

Are you after my wife or something :P

I thought caliper alignment was pretty easy when I did it and I'm pretty sure I did it correctly (could see a gap either side of the rotor and wasn't catching with the wheel spinning)?

I'm going to get the bike into the workspace (kitchen) tomorrow (maybe that will fark off the wife ) and have a proper look.

Cookeh

Who wouldn't be?!

Try loosening the caliper off, and spinning the wheel before pulling the brake hard (repeat 2-3 times), then on the last one, tighten the caliper bolts while still holding down the brake firmly. In theory, the brake will align itself that way.

Awful syntax, need coffee, hopefully you get what I mean.

alexthebear

Cookeh wrote:

Who wouldn't be?!

Well put fella

Cookeh wrote:

Try loosening the caliper off, and spinning the wheel before pulling the brake hard (repeat 2-3 times), then on the last one, tighten the caliper bolts while still holding down the brake firmly. In theory, the brake will align itself that way.

Awful syntax, need coffee, hopefully you get what I mean.

Is this how you do it? I loosen the caliper then look down the rotor and align so that both pads are parallel to the rotor and that niether fowl when wheel is spinning (as good as I can get anyway)

apreading

The problem is often that the torque of tightening the bolts tries to twist the calipers in a clockwise direction - with a bit of trial and error, I have come to find that it helps to tighten the top bolt first but really (especially when doing by sight without squeezing the brakes to clamp it in position) it just needs care and a little over-compensation to allow for the toque induced twist that may well still occur. This is lessened with the brakes applied, clamping the caliper in position but can still occur.

I found my Jiucy's needed to be realigned almost every ride and I got soooo fed up with them. Would have dumped Avid for good except I bought a boardman that came with Elixirs and they dont need touching unless replacing pads etc - totally different story. Since then I actually bought (cheap) Elixirs to replace the Juicys on my old mountain bike and they seem fine too. I think Juicy's were just a bad design and mine also always suffered from sticky pistons, squeal and a pinging noise from the spring on the front one.

All my experience of bleeding was from the Juicy's too - in a vain attempt to make them work better. Since moving to the Elixirs I dont think I have bled them once.

JBA

I agree with apreading - I had Juicy 3.5 brakes on my last bike and they were rubbish. Not particularly effective, a pig to bleed and needed regular alignment. However, my current bike has Elixir R brakes and they have been faultless for the last 2 years. No need to bleed them and only had to align the front caliper once after a pad change.
I have bought another set of second hand Elixirs to fit to my wife's bike as well.

Cookeh

alexthebear wrote:

Cookeh wrote:

Try loosening the caliper off, and spinning the wheel before pulling the brake hard (repeat 2-3 times), then on the last one, tighten the caliper bolts while still holding down the brake firmly. In theory, the brake will align itself that way.

Awful syntax, need coffee, hopefully you get what I mean.

Is this how you do it? I loosen the caliper then look down the rotor and align so that both pads are parallel to the rotor and that niether fowl when wheel is spinning (as good as I can get anyway)

I've done it both ways and had success with both ways. When we do re-alignment on NTUs club bikes we use the above method too - it's quicker and works perfectly.

alexthebear

I'm going to be doing some work on the bike tonight so I'll let you know how I get on with this method cheers