Sapim spokes

scottishgeek

Been chatting with a local wheel builder about some new handbuilts for my road bike.

Aside from the rims and hubs he suggested Sapim race spokes however if I push my budget he quoted on Sapim CX-Ray spokes too. Is the latter really worth the not inconsiderable price premium and what difference, if any, may I notice?

cycleclinic

Notice no unless you have a power meter. CX-rays spokes are aero spokes made primarily for racing or TT wheels were every last advantage is needed. The have the same mass and similar stiffness to a Sapim Laser to the extent I think where a CX-ray is used a Laser can be used. Fatigue properties of the two spokes regardless of what Sapim say are similar, they are made from the same wire stock after all. The Race spoke is a different animal, heavier and stiffer. The race spoke is great when coupled with shallow narrow rims like the Open Pro or when a stiffer wheel build is needed because the rider is maybe heavier.

Silver Race spokes are cheap though so that is a good reason to use them even if the build does not need them.

I persoanlly only have two wheelsets with CX-ray, aerodymanic racing wheels. I use them in builds when I am asked to build a wheel for racing or the buyer wants them for "vanity" reasons i.e they just want them.

scottishgeek

Thanks. I'm looking at the Ambrosio Excellight rims which are reasonably shallow (at 70Kg my weight shouldn't be too much of an issue) so will likely stick with Sapim Race. The estimated weight on the wheel build is already considerably lighter than stock and I'm certainly not a racer nor vain

ugo.santalucia

ScottishGeek wrote:

Thanks. I'm looking at the Ambrosio Excellight rims which are reasonably shallow (at 70Kg my weight shouldn't be too much of an issue) so will likely stick with Sapim Race. The estimated weight on the wheel build is already considerably lighter than stock and I'm certainly not a racer nor vain

He should be able to get you Sapim Laser too, which can be used at the front paired with the Race at the rear: these are the un-squashed version of the CX ray, cost 1/3 of the price and will do the same job on the front wheel.

CX Ray are marketed as an upgrade and a luxury item, whilst they have their right place in deep section wheels only

cycleclinic

Agreed on the front they will be fine but on narrow shallow rims then Race spokes are needed for the rear.

scottishgeek

Thanks for the advise. The bloke in question builds wheels as an aside to him main career and have only heard good things about his builds. At present he has been advising me on what he has in stock at present. I have offered to source black spokes for him if he tells me lengths and numbers. Sapim Lasers might well be an option for the front in that case.

clazza

What about theories saying that by using bladed spokes, they can be brought to a higher tension and control the tension uniformity with precision because of the flat edge of the blade? Non-bladed ones will wind up once they get to a certain tension and the wind up is difficult to control?

mr_evil

thecycleclinic wrote:

...Fatigue properties of the two spokes regardless of what Sapim say are similar, they are made from the same wire stock after all...

It's the extra forging step that makes the difference in fatigue strength. It's not just marketing; forging does make a real difference to the material properties.

clazza wrote:

What about theories saying that by using bladed spokes, they can be brought to a higher tension and control the tension uniformity with precision because of the flat edge of the blade? Non-bladed ones will wind up once they get to a certain tension and the wind up is difficult to control?

Bladed spokes can be physically held in place to prevent them winding up, making it easier to build the wheel. This is a worthwhile benefit if you're building a wheel yourself, but a non-issue if you're paying someone else to do it.

holiver

Any opinion on the D-Light spokes for a disc wheel build? 32 hole Archetype rim...

ugo.santalucia

holiver wrote:

Any opinion on the D-Light spokes for a disc wheel build? 32 hole Archetype rim...

They are OK if you are light... I have seen them fail badly on a heavier more powerful one (32 Archetype disc, and I am not talking about an 18 stoner)

cycleclinic

thecycleclinic wrote:...Fatigue properties of the two spokes regardless of what Sapim say are similar, they are made from the same wire stock after all...


It's the extra forging step that makes the difference in fatigue strength. It's not just marketing; forging does make a real difference to the material properties.

clazza wrote:What about theories saying that by using bladed spokes, they can be brought to a higher tension and control the tension uniformity with precision because of the flat edge of the blade? Non-bladed ones will wind up once they get to a certain tension and the wind up is difficult to control?


Bladed spokes can be physically held in place to prevent them winding up, making it easier to build the wheel. This is a worthwhile benefit if you're building a wheel yourself, but a non-issue if you're paying someone else to do it.

The elbow of the Cx-ray spoke has no extra forging step over the Laser spoke. the extra forging step is the mid section. As spoke mainly fails at the elbow the fatigue performace of a CX-ray will be very similar to a Laser spoke as they come from the same wire stock. Unless somehow magic happens and the work hardening done making the bladed section somehow transfers itself down to the elbow. I can assure you it doesn't.

Spoke wind up is a non issue for me I really mean a none issue. I still cannot believe folk think building with CX-ray is easier than building with lasers and use that as a justification of the extra cost. CX-ray take more time to build faffing around with the spoke holder I should know I build with both spokes.

D-light spokes are quite light but they need to be paired with a stiff rim personally I don't use them much at present. I don't think they fail any more than other spokes there may have a been a build issue with that wheel (I presume it was not one of yours ugo). If the build is done right and the rider is not too heavy all will be well.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

D-light spokes are quite light but they need to be paired with a stiff rim personally I don't use them much at present. I don't think they fail any more than other spokes there may have a been a build issue with that wheel (I presume it was not one of yours ugo). If the build is done right and the rider is not too heavy all will be well.

Of course not... :shock: it was a DCR jobbo...

Velonutter

Ugo, I thought the CX-Ray were alloy, but have noticed they are magnetic as well, any thoughts?

ugo.santalucia

Velonutter wrote:

Ugo, I thought the CX-Ray were alloy, but have noticed they are magnetic as well, any thoughts?

YOu were wrong, they are stainless. If they were alloy they would not get to the end of the road

Velonutter

If the black ones are stainless then why do magnets stick to them then?

ugo.santalucia

Velonutter wrote:

If the black ones are stainless then why do magnets stick to them then?

Black spokes are not magnetic... it's the surface treatment... if you cut it in half, the cut will be magnetic

Do you read my blog???? :?

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... bites-dust

gabriel959

Interesting comments here regarding sapim race spokes mainly being used in shallower rims.

I am looking at getting a Hope Evo 2 disc on Archetypes and I know the wheel builder in town swears by the Sapim Race (he builds everything on those). Is that going to be a problem?

Velonutter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

If the black ones are stainless then why do magnets stick to them then?

Black spokes are not magnetic... it's the surface treatment... if you cut it in half, the cut will be magnetic

Do you read my blog???? :?

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... bites-dust

Yep occasionally read your blog, so are you saying that it is the surface coating that is magnetic?

ugo.santalucia

gabriel959 wrote:

Interesting comments here regarding sapim race spokes mainly being used in shallower rims.

I am looking at getting a Hope Evo 2 disc on Archetypes and I know the wheel builder in town swears by the Sapim Race (he builds everything on those). Is that going to be a problem?

Of course not, why would that be a problem? The size you need is likely to be 286-288 mm or thereabout, an Open PRO will only be 4 mm longer... besides, who said you can't use short Sapim Race? I see no problem in building 60 mm rims with Sapim Race

ugo.santalucia

Velonutter wrote:

Yep occasionally read your blog, so are you saying that it is the surface coating that is magnetic?

I am saying the exact opposite... :roll:

Velonutter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

Yep occasionally read your blog, so are you saying that it is the surface coating that is magnetic?

I am saying the exact opposite... :roll:

Riddles, please explain

ugo.santalucia

The spoke is stainless steel... steel is magnetic, hence the silver will be magnetic. The black one is coated with a layer of other metal oxide which is non magnetic

mr_evil

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The spoke is stainless steel... steel is magnetic, hence the silver will be magnetic. The black one is coated with a layer of other metal oxide which is non magnetic

Most stainless steels* are non-magnetic, including spokes. Depending on the exact alloy, they may be slightly magnetic, but not mutch. The surface finish has no effect; there is no material that can block a magnetic field, so if the underlying metal is magnetic, it will still be attracted to a magnet just as strongly through the surface coating.

The most common type of stainless steel is "austenitic", and non-magnetic. Less common "martensitic" stainless steel is magnetic.

ugo.santalucia

Mr Evil wrote:

Most stainless steels* are non-magnetic, including spokes. Depending on the exact alloy, they may be slightly magnetic, but not mutch. The surface finish has no effect; there is no material that can block a magnetic field, so if the underlying metal is magnetic, it will still be attracted to a magnet just as strongly through the surface coating.

The most common type of stainless steel is "austenitic", and non-magnetic. Less common "martensitic" stainless steel is magnetic.

All the stainless spokes (Sapim, DT and Alpina) are magnetic (although I accept they are not the strongest) and none of the black ones is, unless you cut one or brush off the coat... just try for yourself, metallurgy is of not much use if it doesn't work in practice.

mr_evil

ugo.santalucia wrote:

All the stainless spokes (Sapim, DT and Alpina) are magnetic (although I accept they are not the strongest) and none of the black ones is, unless you cut one or brush off the coat... just try for yourself, metallurgy is of not much use if it doesn't work in practice.

That's coincidence. For proof, I just tested some spokes I have:

• CN Spoke (black) - slightly magnetic
• Pillar (black) - slightly magnetic
• DT Swiss (silver) - slightly magnetic
• Unkown brand (silver) - non-magnetic

Removing the coating makes no difference.

Velonutter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Evil wrote:

Most stainless steels* are non-magnetic, including spokes. Depending on the exact alloy, they may be slightly magnetic, but not mutch. The surface finish has no effect; there is no material that can block a magnetic field, so if the underlying metal is magnetic, it will still be attracted to a magnet just as strongly through the surface coating.

The most common type of stainless steel is "austenitic", and non-magnetic. Less common "martensitic" stainless steel is magnetic.

All the stainless spokes (Sapim, DT and Alpina) are magnetic (although I accept they are not the strongest) and none of the black ones is, unless you cut one or brush off the coat... just try for yourself, metallurgy is of not much use if it doesn't work in practice.

The black Sapim CX-ray on my Enve wheels are metallic but not powerful and as Mr Evil said I always thought that Stainless wasn't magnetic, so perhaps it is a magnetic Alloy?

ugo.santalucia

Velonutter wrote:

The black Sapim CX-ray on my Enve wheels are metallic but not powerful and as Mr Evil said I always thought that Stainless wasn't magnetic, so perhaps it is a magnetic Alloy?

It is stainless steel, it is the same used in other Sapim spokes and it is magnetic.