Death of a hub - Act 2

wishitwasallflat

Well: viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12951455&hilit=105+hubs&start=20

Done about 770 miles since the thread linked above and the rear hub is now dead! I reckon that's a total of about 5200 miles. Despite lavishing hours on it last night and again today it is simply impossible to have no play until the cones are so tight it won't spin. Rode it today with some play but otherwise I am off-road! Hoping for some answer to my questions below re opinions and advice for getting replacement hand built wheels below (or just at if really worth the extra) about £300 ASAP:

1) Have I just been unlucky and 105 hubs do last longer than this - so I should get another set of the same?
2) Have I f*(&%d up these hubs through inept servicing - so should I avoid doing it again (especially to a more expensive hub) ?
3) Do Ultegra Hubs have better seals (I know people rave about Dura Ace but that's too expensive)?
4) Would I be better getting cartridge bearing hubs (Miche Primato ?)

I weigh 17.5 stone (still losing slowly but very slowly!), do 100 miles a week, ride pretty much all weather (except ice and snow), rear must be 36 hole and front at least 32 (maybe F 36 as well?). Looks are very much secondary to function but I just got a new silver frame so all silver would probably look nice - so one more question:

5) Are H Plus Son Archetypes 36 hole silver available?

As always advice gratefully received.

ugo.santalucia

Heavy load means your bearings wear a lot quicker... I've got a guy who barely makes 60 Kg and manages to get thousand of miles out of super light hubs... you have the opposite problem.
Can you not replace the cones?

wishitwasallflat

Cheers Ugo but the races (inside the hub) must be knackered too! When I opened them up the cone pretty much looks exactly the same as in the photo in the original thread, the balls looked good too (shiny and silver) there was still a fair amount of grease in it - rebuilt with new balls and grease and now it's impossible to get them to run without play and spinning the axle by hand there is an occasional clunk/knock type feeling so prognosis is terminal I think!

PS - Also cause the rim's pretty near to below 1mm thick I am not feeling much like spending any money on attempting to reincarnating these.

ugo.santalucia

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Cheers Ugo but the races (inside the hub) must be knackered too! When I opened them up the cone pretty much looks exactly the same as in the photo in the original thread, the balls looked good too (shiny and silver) there was still a fair amount of grease in it - rebuilt with new balls and grease and now it's impossible to get them to run without play and spinning the axle by hand there is an occasional clunk/knock type feeling so prognosis is terminal I think!

PS - Also cause the rim's pretty near to below 1mm thick I am not feeling much like spending any money on attempting to reincarnating these.

The thing is cone and ball hubs go on forever, even with a bit of play, a bit of grinding they will still go. I did the full Eroica on a cracked cone and I barely noticed it

wishitwasallflat

Wow - so my spending most of my 3 hour ride today holding my breath waiting for a hub failure based death was a little over the top then Seriously though its great to know I've got plenty time to decide what to do - many thanks.

Still interested in people's ideas about my questions though as another set is still on the agenda (just not as urgent as I thought).

cycleclinic

A cup and cone hub should be set up so the axle has a tiny ammount of play. The Q/R skewer when tightened will remove this play. Set up the hub so there is no play and bearing preload is too high and wear is accelerated.

Cones need to be replaced from time to time. If you do not know how to set up your hub take it too a good shop that does. Not all mechanics do know how to set up hubs though so beware.

105 hubs if cared for will do silly miles. Also use grade 25 balls or better still grade 10 chrome. Not all balls are created equal. Also if the used balls are shiney it does not mean they are not pitted. Stainless steel balls pitt quicker than chrome balls. Chrome ball can rust so lashing of a good water repellant grease is needed with these.

wishitwasallflat

Cheers cycleclinic - clearly something has gone wrong with this set. I do know how to set them up re the QR; the problem now is that its not possible to get that sweet spot. Also the amount of play increases when the QR is done up (yes I did say increases!). One of the many things I tried was to tighten the cones up so much there was no play off the bike. Set like that I couldn't turn the axle by hand - but - when I fitted them they would spin (but not very freely) and there was play! Today I set them with just a little play and when the QR was tightened it increased slightly, by the end of the ride today there was noticeably more play! Exasperating!

MisterMuncher

I've had this very issue with play developing in Shimano hubs over time. I finally solved it by really tightening the locknuts and cones together on each side. Touch wood, they've been great for a few hundred miles. Grade 25 or above balls and a wee polish of cups and cones will transform a hub.

keef66

I rescued some very old Campag wheels on my son's restoration project. Despite being cleaned and copiously regreased, the bearings feel as rough as a badger's @rse when you turn the axle by hand, but once on the bike and riding you can't tell at all.

ugo.santalucia

keef66 wrote:

I rescued some very old Campag wheels on my son's restoration project. Despite being cleaned and copiously regreased, the bearings feel as rough as a badger's @rse when you turn the axle by hand, but once on the bike and riding you can't tell at all.

Indeed... what happens is the cone wears out and its size and curve does no longer match the balls perfectly... as a result you get either play or you get roughness... Neither is deadly... people expect perfection, but if you can live with imperfection, there are thousands of miles to get out of a tired hub.

As for the OP rebuild... I woul probably still get them rebuilt if the rims are gone but

a) Use a cheaper rim, Rigida Chrina or Mavic Open Sport or Ambrosio Excursion. The Rigida has a different ERD, but with the Ambrosio you can re-use the spokes

b) Be realistic about how much wear they've got. 1 mm is when you start considering a replacement, most rims will fail at 0.7 mm...

cycleclinic

An axle clamp in a bench vice helps alot to get the right set up. Get new cones and all will be well.

wishitwasallflat

Thanks to all - cones and Grade 10 balls ordered so hopefully that will make for a long intermission before Act 3!