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Tour of Oman *Spoiler*

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  • mike6 wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    And yet another thread is trolled into doping oblivion. Do you want all the threads locked?????
    Ironically, the person who brought Vayer into it was Frenchie, who is usually the first to complain. No-one's trolling. Crankbrother is generally reasonable. There's a difference between trolling and having different opinions.
    Yeah Crankbrother is just putting across his point of view, I might not always agree with it (But the world would be boring if we all thought the same) but at least he isn't a massive troll like our recently banned friend "The Truth" or "White boy trash" who I assume also got banned.

    Oh yea? The "I don't believe Sky are doping, I just insist they tell me why they win a few races" trick. Classic troll. " I just want an answer to my question". Makes perfect sense to me. :roll:

    There are a lot of posters on her you can have a good discussion or difference of opinion with. Trolls are different, they only have one agenda and one theme, and its the same regardless of the title or thrust of the thread.

    Pardon me for saying this, but your debating skills need to evolve beyond ridiculing anybody who's perception of Sky differs from your own.
    Otherwise you become what you detest.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95 wrote:
    Vayer doesn't really produce any numbers himself. The watts estimates are by other people and they're hit and miss

    For the Froome quote, he claims to have been given a figure by someone 'who finished close to Froome'. So basically, he claims to have taken someone else's performance (who? why would they share their data? how close? were they trying for the win or just hanging about in the bunch, happy to finish?) and assumed that it applied equally well to a rider of a different weight, different shape, on slightly different equipment and sat on someone else's wheel for the majority of the climb. And then divided that number by an unknown weight to claim shenanigans.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,138
    RichN95 wrote:
    Vayer doesn't really produce any numbers himself. The watts estimates are by other people and they're hit and miss

    For the Froome quote, he claims to have been given a figure by someone 'who finished close to Froome'. So basically, he claims to have taken someone else's performance (who? why would they share their data? how close? were they trying for the win or just hanging about in the bunch, happy to finish?) and assumed that it applied equally well to a rider of a different weight, different shape, on slightly different equipment and sat on someone else's wheel for the majority of the climb. And then divided that number by an unknown weight to claim shenanigans.

    All in a race no one could see :lol:

    It's the weight estimation which gets me.

    You do well to guess your own weight within a couple of %
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells

  • For the Froome quote, he claims to have been given a figure by someone 'who finished close to Froome'. So basically, he claims to have taken someone else's performance (who? why would they share their data? how close? were they trying for the win or just hanging about in the bunch, happy to finish?) and assumed that it applied equally well to a rider of a different weight, different shape, on slightly different equipment and sat on someone else's wheel for the majority of the climb. And then divided that number by an unknown weight to claim shenanigans.


    I'd be interested to know which riders files Vayer has access to and how he goes about joining some very spaced out dots.
    Arnold Jeannesson and Romain Bardet were the only two French riders within a minute (just) of Froome.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Getting back to the Vayer question, what data could anyone ever release that would satisfy someone who was convinced that you're doping? Why would anyone expect a doper to release accurate data rather than doctoring it to present themselves as innocent? It's far easier to nudge a few numbers downwards or lose a couple of kilos on paper than it is to water blood back down to 50% haemocrit, and we know that that happened back in the good old days. Vayer's insistence upon teams releasing numbers seems doomed to fail for these reasons alone. Similarly, back of the envelope calculations "that everyone else's numbers agree with" are no kind of answer when you take a figure you assume is bad and divide it by a rider's weight on wikipedia.

    If we agree that the numbers can't be relied on, what can?

    Human nature. How would you keep a situation like JTL under control? How can you seriously protect against situations like JTL if you're busy doping too? Nobody with a legacy to protect would start a program.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    mike6 wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    And yet another thread is trolled into doping oblivion. Do you want all the threads locked?????
    Ironically, the person who brought Vayer into it was Frenchie, who is usually the first to complain. No-one's trolling. Crankbrother is generally reasonable. There's a difference between trolling and having different opinions.
    Yeah Crankbrother is just putting across his point of view, I might not always agree with it (But the world would be boring if we all thought the same) but at least he isn't a massive troll like our recently banned friend "The Truth" or "White boy trash" who I assume also got banned.

    Oh yea? The "I don't believe Sky are doping, I just insist they tell me why they win a few races" trick. Classic troll. " I just want an answer to my question". Makes perfect sense to me. :roll:

    There are a lot of posters on her you can have a good discussion or difference of opinion with. Trolls are different, they only have one agenda and one theme, and its the same regardless of the title or thrust of the thread.

    Pardon me for saying this, but your debating skills need to evolve beyond ridiculing anybody who's perception of Sky differs from your own.
    Otherwise you become what you detest.

    Well, pardon me for saying this. I am not a Sky fanboi, I will defend any rider or team I believe to be getting unnecessary slurs thrown at them. You are trying to tell me he is not a Sky are doping zealot?

    I am happy to debate anything with almost anyone, except people with an agenda, because it is impossible to reason with a brick wall.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,138
    mike6 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    And yet another thread is trolled into doping oblivion. Do you want all the threads locked?????
    Ironically, the person who brought Vayer into it was Frenchie, who is usually the first to complain. No-one's trolling. Crankbrother is generally reasonable. There's a difference between trolling and having different opinions.
    Yeah Crankbrother is just putting across his point of view, I might not always agree with it (But the world would be boring if we all thought the same) but at least he isn't a massive troll like our recently banned friend "The Truth" or "White boy trash" who I assume also got banned.

    Oh yea? The "I don't believe Sky are doping, I just insist they tell me why they win a few races" trick. Classic troll. " I just want an answer to my question". Makes perfect sense to me. :roll:

    There are a lot of posters on her you can have a good discussion or difference of opinion with. Trolls are different, they only have one agenda and one theme, and its the same regardless of the title or thrust of the thread.

    Pardon me for saying this, but your debating skills need to evolve beyond ridiculing anybody who's perception of Sky differs from your own.
    Otherwise you become what you detest.

    Well, pardon me for saying this. I am not a Sky fanboi, I will defend any rider or team I believe to be getting unnecessary slurs thrown at them. You are trying to tell me he is not a Sky are doping zealot?

    I am happy to debate anything with almost anyone, except people with an agenda, because it is impossible to reason with a brick wall.

    Crankie doesn't have a 'Sky are doping' agenda

    He doesn't like Wiggins - to the point of absurdity.

    Don't get him started on Vaughters/Garmin though.
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • CrampeurCrampeur Posts: 1,065
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!
  • Paul 8vPaul 8v Posts: 5,458
    "You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15. We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...'
    From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..."
    "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece.
    "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.'
  • CrampeurCrampeur Posts: 1,065
    I was thinking more Cofidis 1998-2004 style?
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,596
    Crampeur wrote:
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!
    I'm pretty sure I never had a 60% HCT.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lol at what this thread has descended into.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,228
    Lol at what this thread has descended into.

    "A big boy did it and ran away"
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,596
    Lol at what this thread has descended into.
    You're the one who brought Vayer into it. It's your fault.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crampeur wrote:
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!

    I agree. I enjoyed watching Sella and Ricco etc however doped up it was. Not surprising they caught out sooner or later but it is interesting to watch ET riders.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Paul 8vPaul 8v Posts: 5,458
    edited February 2014
    Thought you'd like the running on dynamite quote Frenchie? Probably seen it before but it is a great quote.
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    edited February 2014
    Lol at what this thread has descended into.

    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    “ An intellectual is someone whose mind watches itself. ”
    -Albert Camus
    RichN95 wrote:
    Lol at what this thread has descended into.
    You're the one who brought Vayer into it. It's your fault.

    Let me just jog your memory and NTA:
    RichN95 wrote:
    For those that want Sky top be 'transparent' look at this tweet:

    Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy Feb 22
    Froome's power output ~6.70 W/kg at Oman Tour, 9 mn for "GREEN mountain's" It's a ******* RED ridiculous performance. Bullshit, joke.

    9 minutes - where does that come from? The race hasn't been broadcast fully to anyone. Vayer is making it up. No actual figures at all. No variables. Just his usual 'not normal' nonsense. Is 6.7 W/kg for nine minutes even unusual? But the twitterarti lap it up.

    Vayer is playing the doping crowd beautifully for his own intersests.

    p.11

    :roll:
    Contador is the Greatest
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Lol at what this thread has descended into.

    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Is a very funny book btw
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Paul 8v wrote:
    Thought you'd like the running on dynamite quote French is? Probably seen it before but it is a great quote.

    Ha went back to look for it now. Not seen it before - I like the running on dynamite part! The part about calvary is misplaced however.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,596

    p.11

    :roll:
    But that was when the race was still going on. We thought he was out, but you dragged him back in.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95 wrote:

    p.11

    :roll:
    But that was when the race was still going on. We thought he was out, but you dragged him back in.

    Unfortunately Rich you are wrong about this issue.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • CrampeurCrampeur Posts: 1,065
    Crampeur wrote:
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!

    I agree. I enjoyed watching Sella and Ricco etc however doped up it was. Not surprising they caught out sooner or later but it is interesting to watch ET riders.

    I'm not so sure about that. Yes, racing was more exciting around that time, but the human cost outweighs it by far. If you have it, the last paragraph of Breaking the Chain is a great reminder of that.
  • Crampeur wrote:
    Crampeur wrote:
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!

    I agree. I enjoyed watching Sella and Ricco etc however doped up it was. Not surprising they caught out sooner or later but it is interesting to watch ET riders.

    I'm not so sure about that. Yes, racing was more exciting around that time, but the human cost outweighs it by far. If you have it, the last paragraph of Breaking the Chain is a great reminder of that.

    To qualify: to be watched in context and not taken seriously I think makes it enjoyable. I don't wish the sport abounded with people like them.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • CrampeurCrampeur Posts: 1,065
    Crampeur wrote:
    Crampeur wrote:
    Doping talk is so boring nowadays, all numbers and microdosing. Bring back the time when people doped with panache, snorted cocaine off hookers and had haematocrits in the high 60s!

    I agree. I enjoyed watching Sella and Ricco etc however doped up it was. Not surprising they caught out sooner or later but it is interesting to watch ET riders.

    I'm not so sure about that. Yes, racing was more exciting around that time, but the human cost outweighs it by far. If you have it, the last paragraph of Breaking the Chain is a great reminder of that.

    To qualify: to be watched in context and not taken seriously I think makes it enjoyable. I don't wish the sport abounded with people like them.

    Ah fair enough. Some of the classics from the late 1990s and early 2000s make a great watch.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,596
    RichN95 wrote:

    p.11

    :roll:
    But that was when the race was still going on. We thought he was out, but you dragged him back in.

    Unfortunately Rich you are wrong about this issue.
    First time for everything, I guess.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,228
    RichN95 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:

    p.11

    :roll:
    But that was when the race was still going on. We thought he was out, but you dragged him back in.

    Unfortunately Rich you are wrong about this issue.
    First time for everything, I guess.

    Lighting the blue touch paper: Rich.
    Going back to the burnt out firework, dousing it in petrol and torching it with a flamethrower: Frenchie.

    :wink:
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
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