fake equipment and the real thing.....

pliptrot

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... ers-40001/

I can't help but make a comparison with the music industry - peddling massively over-priced product and then recoiling in horror when the buying public find alternatives. I've never seen or heard any attempt to justify the prices charged by Colnago, DeRosa, Specialized et.al in any reasonable terms. One wonders if the failure rate of Chinarellos is any different to that of Pinarellos. I don't know. Does anyone?

Sirius631

At least by buying a genuine frame from a premium brand through a reputable dealer, you are supporting those that support the sport you love, you are riding something that is ridden by your favourite riders and you have got a realistic chance of getting satisfaction if something does go wrong.

GiantMike

It's a scare story set up by the mainstream cycling industry.

sungod

reputable brand - r&d, thought given to cf choices, layup and resin selection, based on target ride characteristics and performance, wind tunnel testing, rider feedback, ce testing, multiple iterations to reach final design

cheap copy - whatever cf and resin are to hand, layup? yeah whatever, make a mould look to like the real thing, punt it on ebay

what could possibly justify the higher price of the real thing?

mattv

Sometimes it's difficult to justify stuff like bottle cages made from plastic for 15 quid.... But it's selling stuff like that that keep local shops in business. Online sales are fine for some people here, but almost every cyclist needs a trip to a real shop for either advice, trying something for fit, or getting a big repair sorted. Cheap copies stop shops existing.
Oh, and the frames snap.

skinarelli

GiantMike wrote:

It's a scare story set up by the mainstream cycling industry.

An interesting viewpoint considering everything coming out of China with a branded name on is fake - period.

Barteos

Well, there is really no such thing as "overpriced" in a free market economy. Every company has a right to charge whatever they want for their products and at the same time to protect their intellectual property from parasites.
If it's too expensive to you, get a cheaper alternative.

pliptrot

sungod wrote:

what could possibly justify the higher price of the real thing?

That question is the point of my post. Is anybody able to answer it?

cornerblock

I've got a funny feeling my bike may be a fake. It's a lot slower than the blurb claimed it was.

RDW

Sure, we all know about 'Chinarello' frames from dodgy traders on the Internet, but has anyone really come across an 'unaffiliated local bike shop' that tries to pass these off as genuine? Sounds like a scare story to me, but if it's not, I'd like to see the evidence.

Percy Vera

GiantMike wrote:

It's a scare story set up by the mainstream cycling industry.

^^ This

Plenty of big brand frames break also.
If you buy unbranded from a reputable company there's as much chance of it breaking as a big brand.

There are plenty of big brands out there buying generic frames and sticking their name on them and charging a premium.

It's like anything, there will be dodgey companies out there, but not all unbranded frames are a death trap waiting to break.

rolf_f

Percy Vera wrote:

If you buy unbranded from a reputable company there's as much chance of it breaking as a big brand.

Define reputable company. There's commonly mentioned ones on here which people say are good and reliable but when something does break, the story is always to return at buyers expense (which isn't cheap) and no clear idea of what happens then (and apparently no refunding of return postage if the item is replaced) - as a result of which nobody seems to bother.

Of course, you are choosing to save money in the purchase cost against the gamble that things won't go wrong and you are left holding a useless product - but I'm not sure that that business model is one which a reputable company would take.

Percy Vera

By reputable I mean ones with good feedback ie Dengfu, Hongfu are the 2 that spring to mind.
I think there's a confusion between 'fake' & 'generic'.
The companies that make Chinarellos etc. ie fake big brands, then yes - I wouldn't buy from them or not a copy anyway.
However, Dengfu, Hongfu (from my understanding) make their own generic frames that big brands buy & sell under their own brand.

I've heard plenty of stories where the big brand companies don't honour their warranties (a lot of them on this site).

My 2 unbranded frames are still going strong after 3 years, although I did buy one of the Scott CR1 SL's last year for £499.

rolf_f

Percy Vera wrote:

By reputable I mean ones with good feedback ie Dengfu, Hongfu are the 2 that spring to mind.
I think there's a confusion between 'fake' & 'generic'.
The companies that make Chinarellos etc. ie fake big brands, then yes - I wouldn't buy from them or not a copy anyway.
However, Dengfu, Hongfu (from my understanding) make their own generic frames that big brands buy & sell under their own brand.

I've heard plenty of stories where the big brand companies don't honour their warranties (a lot of them on this site).

My 2 unbranded frames are still going strong after 3 years, although I did buy one of the Scott CR1 SL's last year for £499.

Yep - the likes of Dengfu are that sort of company that don't really provide a meaningful warranty as far as I understand and are therefore not convincingly of good reputation.

As for reputable brands not honouring their warranties - any examples? There's cases where the fault doesn't appear to be a manufacturing fault or where it has occurred when the frame is over a year old (which isn't really good enough) but I don't recall any failures to honour warranties where a frame has been clearly shown to be defective at purchase or soon after.

I'm glad your unbranded frames are fine but if you had a hundred of them all in good working order it wouldn't really mean anything.

sungod

pliptrot wrote:

sungod wrote:

what could possibly justify the higher price of the real thing?

That question is the point of my post. Is anybody able to answer it?

er, do you think these things have no cost?...

r&d, thought given to cf choices, layup and resin selection, based on target ride characteristics and performance, wind tunnel testing, rider feedback, ce testing, multiple iterations to reach final design

a counterfeit may be safe and ride fine, will it be as good as the real thing? no idea, you'd need to do a direct comparison to find out; but counterfeits clearly damage the business of the companies that do invest, so that they fail or cut cost (people, r&d, etc.), that's not good

if a company produces counterfeits, it's dishonest, why support thieves, let alone trust them with your life?

Percy Vera

Rolf F wrote:

Percy Vera wrote:

By reputable I mean ones with good feedback ie Dengfu, Hongfu are the 2 that spring to mind.
I think there's a confusion between 'fake' & 'generic'.
The companies that make Chinarellos etc. ie fake big brands, then yes - I wouldn't buy from them or not a copy anyway.
However, Dengfu, Hongfu (from my understanding) make their own generic frames that big brands buy & sell under their own brand.

I've heard plenty of stories where the big brand companies don't honour their warranties (a lot of them on this site).

My 2 unbranded frames are still going strong after 3 years, although I did buy one of the Scott CR1 SL's last year for £499.

Yep - the likes of Dengfu are that sort of company that don't really provide a meaningful warranty as far as I understand and are therefore not convincingly of good reputation.

As for reputable brands not honouring their warranties - any examples? There's cases where the fault doesn't appear to be a manufacturing fault or where it has occurred when the frame is over a year old (which isn't really good enough) but I don't recall any failures to honour warranties where a frame has been clearly shown to be defective at purchase or soon after.

I'm glad your unbranded frames are fine but if you had a hundred of them all in good working order it wouldn't really mean anything.

Merlin springs to mind with their 'Lifetime Warranty' - viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12744969&hilit=merlin+warranty

Sirius631

pliptrot wrote:

sungod wrote:

what could possibly justify the higher price of the real thing?

That question is the point of my post. Is anybody able to answer it?

You cut off the part of his reply which answered your question.

rolf_f

Percy Vera wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Percy Vera wrote:

By reputable I mean ones with good feedback ie Dengfu, Hongfu are the 2 that spring to mind.
I think there's a confusion between 'fake' & 'generic'.
The companies that make Chinarellos etc. ie fake big brands, then yes - I wouldn't buy from them or not a copy anyway.
However, Dengfu, Hongfu (from my understanding) make their own generic frames that big brands buy & sell under their own brand.

I've heard plenty of stories where the big brand companies don't honour their warranties (a lot of them on this site).

My 2 unbranded frames are still going strong after 3 years, although I did buy one of the Scott CR1 SL's last year for £499.

Yep - the likes of Dengfu are that sort of company that don't really provide a meaningful warranty as far as I understand and are therefore not convincingly of good reputation.

As for reputable brands not honouring their warranties - any examples? There's cases where the fault doesn't appear to be a manufacturing fault or where it has occurred when the frame is over a year old (which isn't really good enough) but I don't recall any failures to honour warranties where a frame has been clearly shown to be defective at purchase or soon after.

I'm glad your unbranded frames are fine but if you had a hundred of them all in good working order it wouldn't really mean anything.

Merlin springs to mind with their 'Lifetime Warranty' - viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12744969&hilit=merlin+warranty

OK fair enough to a point - but I think many people would argue that American Bicycle Group aren't that reputable and I'm not convinced that Merlin is a big brand - irrc that thread was about a high end handmade boutique frame; not really equivalent to anything from the Chinese plastics factories. I think you'll have to come up with a bit more convincing an example than Merlin!

Old_Timer

If one feels that these fakes are just a price savings go ahead and buy/ride them. If and when they catastrophically fail and you get injured don't whine about the choice you made. it isn't any type of major manufacturers conspiracy to charge higher prices, the R&D and other costs related to quality manufacturing should get passed along in the price charged. That is how the market system works. If it is so much less expensive there is some reason that the cost is low, say inferior materials, shoddy workmanship and such. There are quality frames and components coming out of China, just as there is counterfeit pieces worth less than the price they charge. You pay your money and take your chances.