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Does the BC points system change for small fields?

SouthgateSouthgate Posts: 246
edited February 2014 in Amateur race
If, for whatever reason, only a few riders show up for a crit race, does that change the points allocation, i.e. do you still get points for a top 10 finish or just for, say, the top five places?
Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.

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  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Nope, there's no change for the size of fields.

    It's one of the reasons why the points system has changed in recent years to limit the maximum number of points available in midweek and winter races.
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  • Thanks.
    Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.
  • bucklesbuckles Posts: 694
    That's just reminded me of something I wanted to ask....

    Let's say I enter a circuit race and the field size is only 5 (yes, it's happened) and the race is 40 mins + 5 laps as opposed to a set number of laps or a set distance...

    Now, I get dropped, ride around at 10mph whilst repeatedly getting lapped by the 'bunch' of four riders until the lap board comes out, at which point I rejoin the bunch and stay with them.

    Do I still get 5 points for finishing 5th despite not completing anywhere near the same distance as the other riders? After all, I have done 40mins plus 5 laps...
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  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    buckles wrote:
    Now, I get dropped, ride around at 10mph whilst repeatedly getting lapped by the 'bunch' of four riders until the lap board comes out, at which point I rejoin the bunch and stay with them.

    Do I still get 5 points for finishing 5th despite not completing anywhere near the same distance as the other riders? After all, I have done 40mins plus 5 laps...

    You get a DQ and no points. (taking shelter)

    Had you not jumped in, you should still have got 5th.
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  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,027
    You will probably get a DQ for contesting the sprint if you are a lapped rider. Otherwise, you just have to finish to pick up your well-earned points.
  • Pretty sure you can take shelter in the bunch, taking part in the sprint will just look stupid.

    It's a pretty unlikely scenario, you may get pulled out if you really are bad but if you are trying to race and participate then there is no reason you wouldn't get points.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Pretty sure you can take shelter in the bunch, taking part in the sprint will just look stupid.

    No you cannot... However it's the sort of thing that is regularly ignored and even encouraged in lower level racing - just like the permission to continue racing once lapped which is also at the discretion of the chief comm. To give people the experience when they're so far off the pace that they're getting dropped. There's no specific offence though of "contesting the sprint".
    Where a lapped rider is allowed to continue, he shall not give pace or shelter to a rider by whom he has been lapped
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  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    If the comms haven't said lapped riders must pull out there's no problem. I once assumed I had to stop riding at 5 to go, and other lapped riders went on to pick up points.
  • bucklesbuckles Posts: 694
    jibberjim wrote:
    Pretty sure you can take shelter in the bunch, taking part in the sprint will just look stupid.

    No you cannot... However it's the sort of thing that is regularly ignored and even encouraged in lower level racing - just like the permission to continue racing once lapped which is also at the discretion of the chief comm. To give people the experience when they're so far off the pace that they're getting dropped. There's no specific offence though of "contesting the sprint".
    Where a lapped rider is allowed to continue, he shall not give pace or shelter to a rider by whom he has been lapped
    So you can take shelter, in the bunch just not give it to anyone else...
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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,498
    buckles wrote:
    jibberjim wrote:
    Pretty sure you can take shelter in the bunch, taking part in the sprint will just look stupid.

    No you cannot... However it's the sort of thing that is regularly ignored and even encouraged in lower level racing - just like the permission to continue racing once lapped which is also at the discretion of the chief comm. To give people the experience when they're so far off the pace that they're getting dropped. There's no specific offence though of "contesting the sprint".
    Where a lapped rider is allowed to continue, he shall not give pace or shelter to a rider by whom he has been lapped
    So you can take shelter, in the bunch just not give it to anyone else...

    Exactly - I assume to prevent a team mate from easing off, then taking up the pace and giving shelter to another member of his team ....
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    buckles wrote:
    Where a lapped rider is allowed to continue, he shall not give pace or shelter to a rider by whom he has been lapped
    So you can take shelter, in the bunch just not give it to anyone else...[/quote]

    Which means you cannot have a single rider behind or to the side of the you, so you can hang at the absolute back of the bunch with no-one beside you - I guess it depends if you think of that as in the bunch or not...
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  • xixangxixang Posts: 328
    jibberjim wrote:
    buckles wrote:
    Where a lapped rider is allowed to continue, he shall not give pace or shelter to a rider by whom he has been lapped
    So you can take shelter, in the bunch just not give it to anyone else...

    Which means you cannot have a single rider behind or to the side of the you, so you can hang at the absolute back of the bunch with no-one beside you - I guess it depends if you think of that as in the bunch or not...

    it would depend on how you'd define giving shelter. I've done countless crits where riders are lapped and then jump back in the bunch. I even know 1 rider who short-circuits the course to get back in- comms know and allow it providing he owns up (he does). Comms have never once bothered and some actively encourage lapped riders to keep going (training/experience?). Now if a lapped rider jumped with a break or was seen actively sheltering a team mate (as opposed to coincidentally sheltering whoever happens to be behind) that may be different, but riding in the bunch (rather than at the front, pacing) seems to be accepted IME.

    This is only my experience, mind, and I suppose if a rider felt the lapped rider had interfered with the race and a complaint was lodged, then it may be a different story. Lapped riders shouldn't contest sprints though. Some crits I've done riders are briefed that lapped riders must drop back at the sprint or risk DQ.
  • bucklesbuckles Posts: 694
    Weren't there a couple of problems in the Tour Series or Premier Calendar with lapped riders in the finishing straight causing an obstruction? They should be made to retire before the last lap IMO
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  • sub55sub55 Posts: 1,025
    In a similar vein ,I was once dq`d in a handicap race because I caught the bunch that was supposed to be catching me. The commesaire said I was taking shelter. Still niggles me. :evil:
    constantly reavalueating the situation and altering the perceived parameters accordingly
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    xixang wrote:
    This is only my experience, mind, and I suppose if a rider felt the lapped rider had interfered with the race and a complaint was lodged, then it may be a different story. Lapped riders shouldn't contest sprints though. Some crits I've done riders are briefed that lapped riders must drop back at the sprint or risk DQ.

    Remember most crit racing is at a low level, either a genuinely low level where giving people experience is worthwhile, or it's at a high level but it's a midweek bit of fun. So the comms obviously use their common sense and discretion to let you carry on and get the experience / lack of boredom of riding around alone as long as you don't interfere with the race.

    *Sub55* That's terrible, guess the comms were just asleep... No lead car presumably?
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  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,330
    I wish they'd just pull lapped riders or introduce a rule you can't get back in the bunch - if they get shelled once they may as well ride round with a few others and get fit anyway. Remember a race where I got held up by a crash - spent the next lap killing myself to chase back on while others just stood by the side of the track, jumped back in and then took part in the finishing sprint a lap later.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 25,414
    I wish they'd just pull lapped riders or introduce a rule you can't get back in the bunch - if they get shelled once they may as well ride round with a few others and get fit anyway. Remember a race where I got held up by a crash - spent the next lap killing myself to chase back on while others just stood by the side of the track, jumped back in and then took part in the finishing sprint a lap later.

    If it was a crit then they were entitled to take a lap out.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Pross wrote:
    jumped back in and then took part in the finishing sprint a lap later.

    If it was a crit then they were entitled to take a lap out.[/quote]

    Not if it was on the penultimate lap. (Lap out for crashes, punctures and failures of essential equipment is only possible before the last 5 laps)
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  • ProssPross Posts: 25,414
    Is it right that you now need 12 points to move to 3rd cat? Hope not as I'll feel like I'm moving backwards if I miss out on my perennial target of getting 3rd cat by 12 points rather than the usual 10! :oops:
  • ongejongej Posts: 118
    Yes, unfortunately as of this year, 12 points to move up to 3rd cat, so no more instant upgrade with a win :-(
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    ongej wrote:
    Yes, unfortunately as of this year, 12 points to move up to 3rd cat, so no more instant upgrade with a win :-(

    Unless it's a Reg B Road or Reg A circuit which can be open to 4th cats, but of course less likely as they should also be open to at least 3's if not 2's as well.
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  • Isn't there a danger of there being a bottleneck at fourth cat level? Outside of winter series races there are hardly any 4th-cat only races round my way, nearly everything is for 3rd/4th together. Even if you do manage to find a 4th-cat only race, the smallest field I've known was 35ish, but there are often a lot more than that. The fields for the 3rd/4ths are often much bigger (60 for ones I've done on the open road, and nearly 100 once at Hog Hill) and the quality is higher, obviously. So the chances of getting into points scoring positions are not very high. As more and more people take up racing and start at 4th cat level it's only going to get more and more difficult to pick up the points to move up.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Isn't there a danger of there being a bottleneck at fourth cat level?

    It doesn't matter if there's a bottleneck unless the races with 4th cats become harder than higher categorised levels, cats are to get fair racing, if you find yourself racing at a level which is a challenge, then you're at the right level.
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  • marykamaryka Posts: 746
    Personally I would like to see the upgrade from 4th cat (i.e., "beginner") level to 3rd cat (i.e., not much better but more experienced) level done via number of races completed rather than points. The American system does this and it seems to make more sense. With the current system, you see people sprinting desperately from 20th spot hoping to pick up a point or two, you get people who can sprint move up to 3rd in a race (2 races now) regardless of whether they can ride safely in a bunch, you might get a 4th cat who can't sprint, can't climb, but can easily ride in the bunch safely not move up ever!

    To me the point of 4th cat is that it's a beginner level, so once you are no longer a beginner and have proven it (say 10 finishes in the bunch -- so 10 races minimum) then you should just move up to 3rd. However the BC road commission saw it differently when they did their review of the categories and ranking/points system last year and instead of choosing to make organisers create better statistics (by recording each and every finisher in a 4th cat race, not just the first 10) they went with changing the points needed to 12 so that no rider could upgrade after only one circuit race.

    Maybe if people wrote to their Region about this, rather than posting on an internet forum, the slow-moving machine over at BC might be inspired to do things differently... but at the moment they are doing what they think is best based on whatever information they are getting.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,027
    ^^ agree with the above. The objective in 4th cat racing should be to gain experience. Currently, the objective seems to be to get out of 4th cat as soon as possible.
  • ProssPross Posts: 25,414
    Imposter wrote:
    ^^ agree with the above. The objective in 4th cat racing should be to gain experience. Currently, the objective seems to be to get out of 4th cat as soon as possible.

    I'm all for that - I did a year as a junior, 6 years as an old school (pre-4th cat) 3rd cat and now 4 years of occasional races at 4th cat level so must be one of the only 4th cats who has been a 3rd cat previously!! :lol:

    I know it's been said on here before but the best situation would be you move up after completing a set amount of races and once the commissaires have signed you off as not being a danger.
  • ratsbeyfusratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Imposter wrote:
    ^^ agree with the above. The objective in 4th cat racing should be to gain experience. Currently, the objective seems to be to get out of 4th cat as soon as possible.

    An 'old wise hand' in my club recommended that new racers should try to 'escape' from 4th cat asap! A load of tosh in my opinion...I got no points last year (in about 8 races) but have I've got 11 points this year picked up in dribs and drabs during a winter series (6th, 8th x 2, 9th x 2 and 10th). I'm in no rush to get that 12th point as I know that the 3rd cats in my club are a lot fitter than me, and I'm enjoying myself in the 4th cats. There seem to be just as many crashes in the 3rd cat races, and just as many sprints for the lesser places in them as well, so personally I'd rather be racing with people of a similar level to me whilst I can. I purposely threw away the opportunity to contest the sprint in the last race I did by trying to go off on a solo break several times early on. If it had worked I would've been ecstatic to get the points by trying a new tactic, but it didn't as I simply wore myself out like some headstrong wasp smashing itself into a window! Nothing lost though, and some more experience gained.

    Ideally, I'd really like to only pick up that final point and move up to cat 3 by finishing in the top 3 of a 4th cat race... and if it doesn't happen this season I'm happy to start from scratch again in Cat 4 next year. Honest! :lol:


    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,330
    There is probably more of a bottleneck as you move up the categories than 4th to 3rd. I'd have liked to see the podium places in Regional A's given more points or the requirements for first cat reduced maybe to the level currently required to keep a first cat licence. Whether fourth cats move up after one race or five races doesn't bother me in the slightest seeing as they can race with me in a 234 or 34 anyway.
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  • Omar LittleOmar Little Posts: 2,040
    The problem varies across the country depending on whether there are off road circuits or not

    With the current directive of there to be no 4th Cat only road races that means there is (at the moment) only one 4th only race in Scotland this year. A few long standing 4th only races have had to go 3/4 (or disappeared from the calender because they already have a E/1/2/3 race) and the various development series which are intended to help bring on riders and were to include a few races just for 4th cat (alongside the other juniors/3/4 races in the series) have had to be changed to all being juniors/3/4. There is the potential there for a bottleneck not so much with the points available just the lack of racing available for 4th only fields.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,027
    The problem varies across the country depending on whether there are off road circuits or not

    With the current directive of there to be no 4th Cat only road races that means there is (at the moment) only one 4th only race in Scotland this year. A few long standing 4th only races have had to go 3/4 (or disappeared from the calender because they already have a E/1/2/3 race) and the various development series which are intended to help bring on riders and were to include a few races just for 4th cat (alongside the other juniors/3/4 races in the series) have had to be changed to all being juniors/3/4. There is the potential there for a bottleneck not so much with the points available just the lack of racing available for 4th only fields.

    If the issue is with supply not meeting demand, then that's an issue for Scottish Cycling/race organisers to address.
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