BB (other brand!) + Campag Crankset

tt11

Hi, I'm an avid Campagnolo fan but Campag-related things are starting to get on my nerves.
First things first, I'm fed up with Campagnolo manifold cranksets designs, namely UT, PT and OT. Here I'm going to focus on PT only as it has been giving me lots of sleepless nights for a long time now. My first (and the only for now) question, clear & simple is: is there any possibility to remove the pre-assembled bearing from the drive-side of the crankset (I'm using Veloce) and free myself from Campgnolo BB altogether once and for all? I want to use some other brand BB, not Camapgnolo cups. Is such a radical, non-orthodox solution in this Camapg VS rest of the world world possible?
There's only one condition I'd like to highlight - such a solution should work flawlessly and smoothly, without any issues at all and to retain the same Q-factor as with original Camapgnolo BB cups.
Good Lord, how I hate Campagnolo crankset designs!

By the way, (I'm becoming desparate) - will SRAM Red 10s work with Campagnolo Veloce 10s?

cycleclinic

No you need P-T cups and I use P-T and it nothing but reliable for me. I only use it in winter filth as well, in fact it is a reliable design with bearings that can replaced with INA or SKF 6805x7mm bearings for even longer bearing life. You can't do that with Shimano, FSA or SRAM BB's.

Any crankset will work but what exactly is your problem with P-T. If you are getting short bearing life then there is a problem with installation like the BB shell is not properly faced or it is too narrow or some other fault.

The only thing wrong with P-T is the tool intensive servicing requirements but that what good shops are for and a good shop will ensure it is properly installed and will use INA bearings when changing your BB bearings.

rolf_f

Why would you be fed up with Campagnolo crankset designs that you aren't using?! If you aren't using them, they can't hurt you.

Personally, I find UT absolutely fine aside from shortish bearing life but they are a doddle to replace. It might help if you say what the problem is.

tt11

Thanks for your replies, they give me some hope...

Currently I'm using 2 designs but I'm considering switching to Rotor cranksets. (Yesterday I saw OT design and it gave me shivers and cold sweat).

What I despise about PT design is its extremely frustrating - at least for me - installing/uninstalling procedure. There are no problems with bearings life or other things whatsoever. Moreover, my PT crankset works flawlessly. But when it comes to (well, once a year...) uninstalling this stuff I'm getting a terrible headache and the prospect makes me dizzy. My friend has Shimano crank and I always admire its simplicity and utter elegance, yes, I must admit. Installing as well as uninstalling is a sheer pleasure, pure poetry so to say. Looking at my 3 road machines I keep asking myself: Campagnolo, why? Why UT, PT and OT?? Why all these tools, strange ideas with pre-assembled bearings, left arm axtractors (alu and carbon versions - there are 2 different for PT and 2 for OT. Not to mention UT...), all this unnecessary work that has to be done with great patience and diligence. It's really too much for me. I've been riding Camapgnolo for 12 years and I'm still in love with this brand but Campag cranksets designs are beyond my ken...

And this is the story of my road life and love/hate relatonship with Campagnolo.

majormantra

It's just a chainset. Buy Shimano cranks if you're so frustrated - they shift better than Campag (and Rotor) IMO anyway. I'm gradually migrating away from Campag too...

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Any crankset will work but what exactly is your problem with P-T. If you are getting short bearing life then there is a problem with installation like the BB shell is not properly faced or it is too narrow or some other fault.

Oh c'mon Malcolm, you are better than that... leave that bullsxit to the Campagnolo salesmen. You need more than just lack of facing, you need to have a pipe cut at a wrong angle to cause some stress in the BB area... it's just another way Campag has to say: "sorry, we cocked the design by using undersized cartridge bearings which are not suited to the heavy load in the BB area... but we can't say that, so we blame everybody else.
But hey oh, it's lighter and stiffer, so it must be good!

tt11

MajorMantra, I've just read and I couldn't agree more I'm afraid. My love lasts but no one knows how it will unfold. Camapgnolo is a harsh mistress.

majormantra

TT11 wrote:

Camapgnolo is a harsh mistress.

Indeed.

ugo.santalucia

TT11 wrote:

MajorMantra, I've just read and I couldn't agree more I'm afraid. My love lasts but no one knows how it will unfold. Camapgnolo is a harsh mistress.

I had UT which did work OK as long as you ride in dry conditions. First wet ride and one week later the bearings are gone. I did replace it with an older square taper system and after this wet winter the bearings are as good as new...
BUT IT'S HEAVIER AND LESS STIFF, SO IT MUST BE BAD!

tt11

No, it's not that bad. It's just heavier and less stiff :-)
As far as UT is concerned you're right, riding is possible only in dry conditions.

What do you all think about this Rotor + Veloce 10s. Do you think they will fall in love with each other? Everything will be fine, smooth, flawless and last forever and ever? A perfect marriage?
http://allegro.pl/korby-rotor-3df-bb-30 ... 22547.html

cycleclinic

Facing the BB shell is important and if short bearing life is experienced there has to be a traceable problem. Shimano, FSA, SRAM all recomends the facing of the BB shell it is not just campag. I am not a salesman don't accuse me of that

P-T bearings are 6805 like Shimano BB bearings but they are 7mm wide. They last as long as shimano BB bearings I am not sure what you are getting at ugo. If campag have cocked up the design then so have FSA, Shimano, Rotor, SRAM and everyone else.

Square taper designs rock. My race bike has record 10 speed carbon cranks with a record square taper BB it is light and perfect. I do feel all modern BB systems are inferior which is why seven of my ten bikes run on square taper BB's.

Race Face cranks require a ISIS crank puller to get them off the bike. Everyone has there own system, Campagnolo choose for some reason a very complicated one. That is why shops exists though to save you the trouble.

As a side not MajorMantra Shimano have released ST-9001 to replace ST-9000 why because Shimano have realised that the 9000 STI has a gear shifting issue, something to with the cable routing through and out of the shifter. So given your blog post it is not just Campagnolo thats mess up sometimes, every company does.

ugo.santalucia

I did ride UT on a dry weather bike for one year, no problem at all, I then used it twice in a downpour and had to change the bearings... the second set lasted about 3 months, whilst the bike was moved to more all year round duty.
What has facing got to do with that?
BTW the shell was faced

It's a bit silly to have good weather only bottom brackets in a nation where it rains every other day on average... if I lived in Marbella, I'd probably only buy flimsy summer only components

cycleclinic

U-T does have short bearing life in the wet and it not to do with installation. This thread started about P-T I have stuck to that so please do not get confused in what I am saying. There is something up with the sealing on U-T bearings. I see this problem even when people wash there U-T bikes regularly. They have had to stop. It is the NDS bearing that always seems to go first.

I however have not been talking about U-T in this thread. My comments about facing in the second post were made because I did not know what the OP's issue with P-T was. Ugo you then moved it onto U-T in which BB shell facing does not cure the problem as the problem is one caused by the bearing itself but that is a side point. This thread has become jumbled up.

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I did ride UT on a dry weather bike for one year, no problem at all, I then used it twice in a downpour and had to change the bearings... the second set lasted about 3 months, whilst the bike was moved to more all year round duty.

I don't understand this. My Ribble is out in all weathers almost every day and the UT bearings last about 7-8000 miles (though last time I changed them late last year, the NDS seemed fine so I've left it in for now - a couple of thousand miles later it's still ok). Not brilliant but hardly exactly 'dry weather only'.

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

I don't understand this. My Ribble is out in all weathers almost every day and the UT bearings last about 7-8000 miles (though last time I changed them late last year, the NDS seemed fine so I've left it in for now - a couple of thousand miles later it's still ok). Not brilliant but hardly exactly 'dry weather only'.

Clearly whoever faced your bottom bracket might know his stuff...

My friend Simon the same, he's had these bloody bearings for years... but that's not the case for the majority of users... I'd call you lucky rather the lot unlucky

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

I don't understand this. My Ribble is out in all weathers almost every day and the UT bearings last about 7-8000 miles (though last time I changed them late last year, the NDS seemed fine so I've left it in for now - a couple of thousand miles later it's still ok). Not brilliant but hardly exactly 'dry weather only'.

Clearly whoever faced your bottom bracket might know his stuff...

My friend Simon the same, he's had these bloody bearings for years... but that's not the case for the majority of users... I'd call you lucky rather the lot unlucky

Possibly! Mr Ribble did the facing (or possibly Mr Dedacciai) - so maybe they are good. Have to admit, I have doubts about them simply because the cups are not connected to each other. I struggle to think the BB deserves the term 'bottom bracket' because all it is is a pair of cups - two separate things. But anyway, the first pair of bearings wore out after 7000 miles of zero maintenance. Then, some way through the second set I noticed that Campag recommend regreasing them every couple of thousand km or suchlike so I am trying to do that now.

The Look seems OK too. It rarely gets wet but it does happen. But that's only done a couple of thousand miles irrc.

I like it. Once you have bought the bearing extractor, the whole process of replacing the bearings is a doddle.

Certainly though, I struggle to see the benefit over square taper - aside from the aesthetics. And the Shimano external BB cranksets tend to look pretty clunky so they don't even benefit from that.

majormantra

thecycleclinic wrote:

As a side not MajorMantra Shimano have released ST-9001 to replace ST-9000 why because Shimano have realised that the 9000 STI has a gear shifting issue, something to with the cable routing through and out of the shifter. So given your blog post it is not just Campagnolo thats mess up sometimes, every company does.

Oh, I know. (I'm listening to Shimano news quite attentively since I have 9000.) But Campag's whole design philosophy irks me, and shows no sign of becoming more rational.

rolf_f

MajorMantra wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

As a side not MajorMantra Shimano have released ST-9001 to replace ST-9000 why because Shimano have realised that the 9000 STI has a gear shifting issue, something to with the cable routing through and out of the shifter. So given your blog post it is not just Campagnolo thats mess up sometimes, every company does.

Oh, I know. (I'm listening to Shimano news quite attentively since I have 9000.) But Campag's whole design philosophy irks me, and shows no sign of becoming more rational.

I have Shimano calipers fitted to my MTB. New SLX ones from a couple of years back (I don't exactly use it much!) - first proper off road run and the caliper body broke at one of the mounting lugs. I discover that the M665s that I have are now obsolete and though still obtainable, not cheap. So I decide to get an M675 caliper instead - only £25 so a reasonable bargain. So I take it to the LBS to ask them to swap the hoses over and bleed it and get quoted £18 for bleeding (which seems a little much since not much fluid is needed but never mind) but also another £20 because bludy Shimano have redesigned the mount for the brake hose to the caliper - so I'd need a new brake hose. What the hell is the point of that? I read loads of reviews for the M665 and they were all great so why redesign something that clearly works?

Anyway, no big deal, got a pair of used but tidy calipers for £20 from Ebay and will hopefully find someone to bleed them. No point to this other than Shimano can be irritating too. And what's with the stupid little plastic flower tool you need to set the preload on the cranks? It's not expensive but it shouldn't be needed.

majormantra

All manufacturers neglect backwards compatibility to an extent though, because there's very little financial incentive not to. And the latest generation SLX brakes are great value for their performance.

The plastic cap is logical and the tool is only £2. Making it out of plastic (and without an allen key fitting) is a way of steering people not to overtighten it - it's supposed to be done up to about 0.5-0.8Nm or so, which is practically nothing.

rolf_f

MajorMantra wrote:

All manufacturers neglect backwards compatibility to an extent though, because there's very little financial incentive not to. And the latest generation SLX brakes are great value for their performance.

As were the last generation of SLX brakes - that's the point! But you might be right about the tool. Still an inelegant solution IMO!

bondurant

Here's another member of the minority of UT owners who ride in crappy weather with no issues for 000s of miles.

Sorry, everyone else. Feel for you. Right here.

On a more serious note I'm sure square taper is better but pffft.

cycleclinic

I am glad someone is having luck with them. I wish a freind of mine with a Burls had similar luck. Done everything I can and his bearings last about 2000 miles. The seal that covers the bearing is an issue I think as is the lack of a seal on one side of the bearing well it is if water gets into the BB shell. I think this is what seperates the users who get good bearing life from U-T bearings and those that don't -water ingress from inside the BB shell.