cyclist punched by car passenger but was he asking for it?

StillGoing

diy wrote:

Its stupid to generalise that audi drivers are worse than any other. Its like saying anyone who rides a specialized is fat. You may have seen plenty of fat people riding specialized but one does not equate to the other.

I suspect there are rather a lot of Audi's in London.

philthy3 wrote:

The defence argument can be used in protecting yourself or another or property. The property being prevented being damaged doesn't have to belong to you. Mode of trial would ordinarily be magistrates but I doubt the CPS would even run with it once they saw the cyclists actions.

Neither of us know the facts from this distance to call it either way. You say no case.. I say I there is. All depends what he says in interview or twitter Might end up as a hate crime

I agree nobody other than those that were there know what happened immediately before the video footage. But the point is enough people think the cyclist did himself no favours whatsoever with his own conduct, so if the passenger was charged with affray (triable either way) then if the jury was a cross section of the posters on this thread, it wouldn't be a unanimous decision whatever it was. The CPS on reviewing all the available evidence would look at that footage applying the code for criminal prosecutors and think there's not a hope in hell of getting a conviction out of this once the bench or a jury see the cyclists behaviour. If they did go for a prosecution, I reckon it'd be Sect 4 of the Public Order Act 1986 for both of them.

StillGoing

GiantMike wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

diy wrote:

its emerging that mr punchy was the passenger, not the driver. severely weakens the self defence argument.

@hibster Assault can be lawful in the protection of property - i.e. the car.

The defence argument can be used in protecting yourself or another or property. The property being prevented being damaged doesn't have to belong to you. Mode of trial would ordinarily be magistrates but I doubt the CPS would even run with it once they saw the cyclists actions.

Awesome. Next time I see anybody doing any damage to any property, I'll fool them (with reasonable force, obviously).

Good man. Just make sure you act within the constraints of Sect 3 Common Law and if you're attempting to arrest someone that it is for an indictable or triable either way offence. If it isn't, you're committing an offence of unlawful detention and if you take them somewhere against their will, in the old days kidnapping. Sh1t isn't it.

The common law approach as expressed in Palmer v R is also relevant to the application of section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967:

"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

Section 3 applies to the prevention of crime and effecting, or assisting in, the lawful arrest of offenders and suspected offenders. There is an obvious overlap between self-defence and section 3. However, section 3 only applies to crime and not to civil matters. So, for instance, it cannot afford a defence in repelling trespassers by force, unless the trespassers are involved in some form of criminal conduct.

Juddlinski

We're all cyclists, and our natural instinct will be to sympathise with fellow cyclists whenever an incident occurs.
But Jesus, this guy was asking for it.
And be honest - who (else) thought it was funny? The way he cycled off in a different direction after he got punched cracks me up. And I love the sight of him cycling as fast as he can to catch up with the Audi at the start. Never have I seen someone so keen to hurry up and get himself punched.
Also - was it the guy from New Tricks? The Wimbledon supporter? I cant be sure.

socistep

the main thing I got from that is that I'm so glad I don't live in London, the volume of cars, cyclists and pedestrians on a small road is something else - give me Leeds any day of the week

BrandonA

mfin wrote:

The cause of the punch is 100% down to the cyclist. If the cyclist had never said a word then the chap would never have hit him.

As to whether the driver did anything wrong... of course he did, but the cyclist is not the police, so if he chooses to mouth off he's probably old enough to know if you have a go at someone you can get a response like that.

The cyclist is not responsible for the actions of the motorist. The motorist is the person who committed the physical assault by hitting cyclist. People have to take responsibility for their action. The driver knows he did wrong as he correctly stopped and then moved into an incorrect place when he realized that he would not be able to accelerate away from the lights due to cyclists entering the box.

The cyclist does have to take responsibility for his actions to though. He did provoke the driver. He should therefore expect a response and be willing to accept whatever happens. The driver was obviously aggressive due to his re-positioning when he had initially stopped.

The initial road incident though was so trivial that in this instance the cyclist should have let it go.

rayjay

I would execute to the death all involved

MartinGT

I did a similar thing to the cyclist a couple of weeks ago, I.e I moved around another cyclist in the box which put me in front of a car. I didn't mouth off. I heard the driver behind me revving and took a small glance back. I noticed he had pushed into the box and wasn't far off my back wheel.

Lights changed, I accelerated quicker than he could and went off and quickly got back into the cycle lane. He comes past revving his big car and I just laughed.

Small man syndrome, let them rev their cars, the driver shouldn't have hit him. But the cyclist was being a bit of a tool, but that doesnt excuse someone hitting him.

Audi driver though, so not a suprise.

skyblueamateur

When I first started out a Range Rover nearly put me into a ditch. The head went and a few choice hand gestures were made. The Range Rover pulls over and I'm off the bike ready to have it. Moving towards the vehicle I realise the blokes got a little girl in the back. I've never felt more embarrassed or ashamed.

Bloke was perfectly reasonable and tried to explain things from his point of view. Cue me sheepishly agreeing and feeling like a right d1ck.

As others have said I just let it pass me by now and enjoy riding more for it.

kieranb

well I don't see any evidence that the passenger had any fear of attack or damage being done to the car. The cyclist is shouting alot but doesn't seem to offer any physical threat to the car or people within the car. Whatever the law says is allowable the man still is responsible for his actions, I don't see him try to talk to the cyclist or protect the car, he hops out and straight away hits the cyclist.

Funny how in some areas people moan about others not tackling crime or intervening when a law is broken, but here the cyclist who takes issue with the driver breaking the law is the one at fault? So, if you saw some people bullying another and intervened, were then assualted yourself, I assume it would be your own fault and that you got what you deserved?

Bobbinogs

I think the point about intervention is really one of personal boundaries and risk assessment. I would intervene (and thereby put myself at risk) if I saw a 'proper' crime being committed and felt my intervention would assist in some way. I don't count a minor infringement of an ASL box to be worth any risk on my behalf.

spankwilder

I'd guess he expected the people in the car to sit there while he gave verbal through the window until the lights changed?

Oh no! he's getting out!

vertigo16

But more to the point, that looked like a really decent punch and the cyclist didn't even go down... hard as nails!

And also, if you get out of your car to hit someone on a busy street, the least you have to do is make sure they hit the deck, or you look a right to$$er...

FJS

1st reaction: Audi driver is a w@nker who should be done for assault.
2nd reaction: cyclist acts like a tool over-reacting to something fairly minor.
The cyclists got his lesson. The Audi driver deserves one too.

rayjay

That's why I say always carry some small fire arms or a grenade to lob in a open window.

Buy yourself a utility belt like Batman.

If that car that cuts you up is blown to Smithereens, they are not going to cut you up again.

bigjim

Unfair fight. The cyclist was astride the bike. Could have just pushed him over didn't need to punch him. The guy was a fat bellied thug. If the cyclist had got off the bike, there was a good chance he could have taken him. Look at the guy! Too many people think a cyclist dressed in Lycra is soft. They don't take into consideration how fit they are.
I get abuse quite a bit out on my road bike and I'm 6'2" and 14 stone and able to take care of myself.
Put me on my MTB and normal clothes I never get so much as a peep out of anybody.

zx6man

bigjim wrote:

Unfair fight. The cyclist was astride the bike. Could have just pushed him over didn't need to punch him. The guy was a fat bellied thug. If the cyclist had got off the bike, there was a good chance he could have taken him. Look at the guy! Too many people think a cyclist dressed in Lycra is soft. They don't take into consideration how fit they are.
I get abuse quite a bit out on my road bike and I'm 6'2" and 14 stone and able to take care of myself.
Put me on my MTB and normal clothes I never get so much as a peep out of anybody.

Yup, seems the case to me also

smidsy

bigjim wrote:

Unfair fight. The cyclist was astride the bike. Could have just pushed him over didn't need to punch him.

Thats effectively all he did - terrible punch, the cyclist was straight up, no messing. The car passenger should be ashamed at such a poor effort of a punch.

1st rule of punching - if you are going to do it make it really count.

diy

I think in general cyclists are pretty soft. Its a hobby/sport/pass time conducive to low upper body strength, powerful lean legs and low overall body weight. You only have to look at contact martial arts fights and you can see that talent is no match for lard.

However, none of that really matters. It takes very little force to knock someone out and cause them serious injuries. A push might have been reasonable a punch not. I can't see any magistrate seeing this as self defence, unless directed to by the clerk.

bigjim

I think in general cyclists are pretty soft.

Depends how you define cyclist. If your a Wiggo type fair enough. But a lot of cyclists are all rounders. I'm built as much on the chest and arms as on the legs. Doesn't help much on the hills but I do ok.
Most fights are over in one good punch or kick. Streetfighting there are no rules. It's just a matter of disabling your opponent. A good strong kick off a cyclist in the goolies or the side of the knee will put most punchers down. One of my sons is a Psychiatric nurse dealing with violent offenders. He knows how to put aggresive opponents on the floor, withoput harming them unduly, even though he's pretty lightweight. That guy had a very vulnerable belly.
Not that it should ever get to that though.

thescouselander

The cyclist absolutely was asking for it. Yes, the car driver was guilty of carp driving but the cyclist was extremely aggressive in his ranting at the car driver which clearly escalated the situation. If you're going to behave like that at some point you're going to find someone with a short temper who will resort to violence. I wonder how many other drivers/passengers this guy ranted at with such zeal. I suspect this cyclist had this coming for some time.

chris_bass

the comments underneath the video make for interesting reading too, shows how cyclists are viewed by a lot of people

michael_roadie

Driver/car occupants entirely in the wrong. The verbal aggression from the cyclist was a result of the driver's aggression/law breaking earlier, the car occupants could have responded in kind (i.e. verbally), and that would have been fine, so the physical assault was taking it to a whole new level - for something that they started in the first place.

Bobbinogs

Chris Bass wrote:

the comments underneath the video make for interesting reading too, shows how cyclists are viewed by a lot of people

I think that was the most depressing point that I took away from the vid. There appear to be a lot of folks out there who really seem to hate other people (I get the impression that cyclists are just one of the target groups these people hate). It kind of blows away any concept of us all sharing the road and all road users treating each other with equal respect and empathy. Horses, grrr. Audis, grrr. BMWs, grrr. Tractors, grrr. Cyclists, grrr. Cyclists wearing pro gear, grrr....

thescouselander

michael_roadie wrote:

Driver/car occupants entirely in the wrong. The verbal aggression from the cyclist was a result of the driver's aggression/law breaking earlier, the car occupants could have responded in kind (i.e. verbally), and that would have been fine, so the physical assault was taking it to a whole new level - for something that they started in the first place.

The conduct of the cyclist was extremely aggressive - so much so it could be construed as a verbal assault. The further escalation to violence was a small step. Both cyclist and passenger should be charged with affray in my opinion.

rayjay

thescouselander wrote:

michael_roadie wrote:

Driver/car occupants entirely in the wrong. The verbal aggression from the cyclist was a result of the driver's aggression/law breaking earlier, the car occupants could have responded in kind (i.e. verbally), and that would have been fine, so the physical assault was taking it to a whole new level - for something that they started in the first place.

The conduct of the cyclist was extremely aggressive - so much so it could be construed as a verbal assault. The further escalation to violence was a small step. Both cyclist and passenger should be charged with affray in my opinion.

Yes the cyclist hurt the Audi driver and Passenger with his mouth words

The passenger actually hurt the cyclist with body violence and he ran away like a cowardy custard man

The passenger man now thinks he his tough, like hard man Bruce Willis, but he is delusional and would get a nasty
beating from Dick Van Dyke ,who would use just his thumb.

Both should be forced to watch One Direction videos for 10 straight hours and eat a big spider

chris_bass

rayjay wrote:

thescouselander wrote:

michael_roadie wrote:

Driver/car occupants entirely in the wrong. The verbal aggression from the cyclist was a result of the driver's aggression/law breaking earlier, the car occupants could have responded in kind (i.e. verbally), and that would have been fine, so the physical assault was taking it to a whole new level - for something that they started in the first place.

The conduct of the cyclist was extremely aggressive - so much so it could be construed as a verbal assault. The further escalation to violence was a small step. Both cyclist and passenger should be charged with affray in my opinion.

Yes the cyclist hurt the Audi driver and Passenger with his mouth words

The passenger actually hurt the cyclist with body violence and he ran away like a cowardy custard man

The passenger man now thinks he his tough, like hard man Bruce Willis, but he is delusional and would get a nasty
beating from Dick Van Dyke ,who would use just his thumb.

Both should be forced to watch One Direction videos for 10 straight hours and eat a big spider

potentially the weirdest post ever

Mikey23

Probably the most sensible post made on this thread...