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Police talking rubbish

smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
edited December 2014 in Campaign
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2237338/metropolitan_police_stop_persecuting_cyclists.html

Too dangerous for cyclists to be on the pavement they say.....

Meanwhile in Germany

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6eK2hEZ4LmDKfQ2diWYf3UsWMwBY2FTeqUcTOOMWfsZg5dzyr61lkmtxYjg

http://bicyclegermany.com/german_bicycle_laws.html

Yes it can work and no its not dangerous so stop talking censored

Posts

  • earthearth Posts: 934
    If you are pootling along at little more than walking pace then it might not be so dangerous but for anything other than that I don't think pavements are adequate.
  • plowmarplowmar Posts: 1,032
    You are joking smoggysteve , aren't you?. You know we have shared use pavements in the U K . But the majority of pavements are too narrow.
    Too my mind it is far safer to be on the road.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,982
    By riding on the pavements aren't you simply displacing the danger onto pedestrians?

    Cycle lanes, higher threshold for a driving licence to drive a lorry or a bus in built up areas and better educated cyclists who are more aware of their surroundings would be a better solution.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,494
    Rather depends if it's an empty pavement. This bit says all I need ...
    Cyclists should be fined for riding on the pavement if they are dangerous or in any way disrespectful to those on foot.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    What is more likely to cause serious harm or death? A car travelling at 30mph + hitting a cyclist or a cyclist travelling at 20mph hitting a pedestrian?

    Note I am not saying the latter cannot ccause either, its just reduced. As for the state of paths being too narrow, that is a matter for your local council to sort. I ride where possible on the road even in Germany but if there is a decent cycle path I will use that instead. Anyone who thinks pavement riding is unsafe I invite to visit Germany/Holland/Belgium to look at what is possible if the infrastructure is designed correctly.
  • What is more likely to cause serious harm or death? A car travelling at 30mph + hitting a cyclist or a cyclist travelling at 20mph hitting a pedestrian?

    That is a loaded question, loaded with so many variables as to be irrelevant. But I will give examples, a cyclist at 20mph hitting a toddler. What will the outcome be on that? I have one and know from experience they are unpredictable and can just start running rather quickly for no reason that you can predict.

    Where I live the paths are actually less than a metre wide. You can get a buggy past a single pedestrian only if the pedestrian is half hanging off the pavement in places. It is on the A6 road which is single carriageway and can just get a car and bus or truck passing each other. It is not ideal for cyclists but the pavement is, IMHO, an impossibility for cyclists. I have seen some use it though and if they tried to get past me on their bike they will be forced into the road, especially if my kid or my partner is there.

    BTW I live in a small town in the Northwest. There are a lot of towns in the north with small pavements totally unsuitable for bikes other than perhaps young kids on the grounds of their safety. A cyclist on the road can command their road space by taking the primary. Also road users are increasingly expecting to encounter bikes and are becoming more cyclist aware even if not cyclist friendly. That is what it is like here at least. It is safe enough to be on the roads here. But I understand not everywhere is the same and some places have wide pavements which make sense to have them mixed use. Morecambe, Saltburn and other seaside towns with promenades have such pavements suitable for bikes and pedestrians. These places have signs just like that German one (or similar) to show it is mixed use. UK does have them but making it universal right to cycle on all pavements is not good here.

    BTW from my memories of trips to Germany, Netherlands they tend to have more open roads with generally better provision historically as well as in these more enlightened times. As ever I think these countries, and I would include Denmark as well, are something to aspire to but in a way that suits reality of our cramped island. IMHO that means selecting your wins so as not to alienate people. Promenades, disused railways, wider pavements/newer roads with cycling provision built in, etc. are all wins we do have and can repeat in other places. However making riding on pavements universally permitted would be a huge loss in terms of public perception of cyclists. Every time a cyclist uses an inappriate pavement condemnation of the cyclist and all cyclist is bad PR we don't need.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    What is more likely to cause serious harm or death? A car travelling at 30mph + hitting a cyclist or a cyclist travelling at 20mph hitting a pedestrian?

    Note I am not saying the latter cannot ccause either, its just reduced. As for the state of paths being too narrow, that is a matter for your local council to sort. I ride where possible on the road even in Germany but if there is a decent cycle path I will use that instead. Anyone who thinks pavement riding is unsafe I invite to visit Germany/Holland/Belgium to look at what is possible if the infrastructure is designed correctly.
    It really annoys me when I (regularly) see people cycling on the footpath. More often than not without any good reason. However I accept there are situations such as dangerous junctions where it may be safer to get off the road. In these cases I would suggest cyclists should dismount or at least unclip one foot and proceed at walking pace until it's safe to return to the road. Cycling on cycle paths is fine, cycling on foot paths I do not agree with. We can't have it both ways.
  • plowmar wrote:
    You are joking smoggysteve , aren't you?. You know we have shared use pavements in the U K . But the majority of pavements are too narrow.
    Too my mind it is far safer to be on the road.

    Isn't the problem that the majority of roads (I'm excluding motorways and d/c) were not designed for cars or bigger vehicles, most pavements not designed for shared use. There are solutions but no government is going to implement them, instead they are throwing £15 billion at the road network to make it 'better' for the motorist, we all know how that's going to work out don't we?
  • I was always taught in primary school cycling proficiency that cycling on pavements was only allowed up to the age of 12. I was also told that above that age you can use pavements but only if you get off your bike and walk with it.

    I have no idea if this was based on regulations/laws (which I very much doubt) but it is two cycling rules I have abided by ever since I got that proficiency badge (stuck on my bike frame with pride).

    Even now I have one bad junction (a staggered cross roads with two different sets of lights (one for the main use side road and another for the other side road about 5-10 metres up the road). I have to turn right and the choices are sit in the middle of the main road with cars and trucks passing on both sides or to nip onto the pavement and use the crossing (or nip across the road and about 25metres on the pavement to the side road). I tend to walk my bike on the pavement and across at a crossing. I do feel an idiot as other cyclists tend to just ride past me at the junction. I guess we all have our views on cycling rules.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    plowmar wrote:
    You are joking smoggysteve , aren't you?. You know we have shared use pavements in the U K . But the majority of pavements are too narrow.
    Too my mind it is far safer to be on the road.

    Isn't the problem that the majority of roads (I'm excluding motorways and d/c) were not designed for cars or bigger vehicles, most pavements not designed for shared use. There are solutions but no government is going to implement them, instead they are throwing £15 billion at the road network to make it 'better' for the motorist, we all know how that's going to work out don't we?


    Just to get things straight. Iam not condoning people breaking the law or suggesting people should ride on the pavement when its not allowed. The point of the original post was to say that saying cycling on the pavement is dangerous. In Germany you get dedicated cycle paths but also as shown in the pic shared pedestrian and cycle paths and they work just fine. So long as all parties know bikes are allowed I see zero problem people using them in the UK. Its a typical British attitude to resist change or look for adopting a better system proven to work on the continent.

    The uk should either make more cycle paths but where it is impractical due to width or cost etc make it a shared path. They can and will work if attitudes change to accept them.
  • Lymington in Hampshire. Shared path that is no wider than a normal pavement.

    On my hybrid when pootling along I use the path and go slowly.
    On my road bike, clipped in, I am going faster, and do not feel its safe or convenient on the path, for both me and the pedestrians.

    609519f3d306d642d90605cebbe233e4.jpg
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Dippydog3 wrote:
    Lymington in Hampshire. Shared path that is no wider than a normal pavement.

    On my hybrid when pootling along I use the path and go slowly.
    On my road bike, clipped in, I am going faster, and do not feel its safe or convenient on the path, for both me and the pedestrians.

    609519f3d306d642d90605cebbe233e4.jpg
    There are many paths near me divided down the middle with one half for pedestrians and the other for bikes and marked as such. These are a reasonable width. I'd guess typically about 3m wide in total (i.e. 1.5m for pedestrian and the same for bikes). I generally don't use these on my roadbike. Why? Well being level with the footpath and distinguished only by a painted line and different coloured surface, most pedestrians treat it as an extension of the footpath and so you can expect to encounter plenty foot traffic encroaching on the bike lane. Pedestrians walking dogs worry me the most. If a dog runs across in front of you trailing a leash attached to a pedestrain you could have a problem! Also the bike path being the road side lane of the path is littered with signposts which are potentially very dangerous if you're not paying attention. last but not least the paths are interrupted regularly by side roads and driveways with inconsistent kerb heights that need to be decended and ascended each time.
    This type of cycle path is fine for low speed cycling, say <20km/h. It's certainly not suitable at 30km/h or more.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    We have speed limits on roads. 30mph on suburban roads even down to 20 in residential areas. Wider roads allow you to go faster say 60 on a dual carriageway. And 70mph on the motorway. Different things can dictate the speed depending on obstacles or turns, visability etc.

    So why is it that people seem to come out with the fact that certain paths would not be suitable for going 20mph or faster. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE FFS. Nowhere do any of use have the right to bomb around as fast as we can on a bike. You can't do so in a car so please drop the argument because its a pathetic one. You cycle to the conditions or find a route that allows you to do so. If you have to slow down on a narrow path for pedestrians then don't complain when cars whizz past you on the road in similar circumstances. Double standards in my eyes.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    We have speed limits on roads. 30mph on suburban roads even down to 20 in residential areas. Wider roads allow you to go faster say 60 on a dual carriageway. And 70mph on the motorway. Different things can dictate the speed depending on obstacles or turns, visability etc.

    So why is it that people seem to come out with the fact that certain paths would not be suitable for going 20mph or faster. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE FFS. Nowhere do any of use have the right to bomb around as fast as we can on a bike. You can't do so in a car so please drop the argument because its a pathetic one. You cycle to the conditions or find a route that allows you to do so. If you have to slow down on a narrow path for pedestrians then don't complain when cars whizz past you on the road in similar circumstances. Double standards in my eyes.
    Not sure if this is in response to my post or not but I suspect it is?

    I fully agree that one must ride responsibly for the conditions at hand. This would include riding slower and with particular care for other users when on cycle paths. My interpretation of the footpath adjacent cycle paths in my area (all on the perimeter of residential areas) is that they are intended for children and those intending to cycle at a relatively sedate pace. They are somewhat suitable for this purpose (although I have some design reservations). However, cyclists are also entitled to use the road and I don't think it's anti-social or irresponsible to ride on the road instead of the provided cycle paths if you intend to ride at a significantly faster pace. I DO have the right to cycle at 25-40km/h on these roads which typically have speed limits of 50km/h.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    I agree with you 100%

    So long as you use common sense and ride where appropriate be it road or pavement
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    What is more likely to cause serious harm or death? A car travelling at 30mph + hitting a cyclist or a cyclist travelling at 20mph hitting a pedestrian?

    Note I am not saying the latter cannot ccause either, its just reduced. As for the state of paths being too narrow, that is a matter for your local council to sort. I ride where possible on the road even in Germany but if there is a decent cycle path I will use that instead. Anyone who thinks pavement riding is unsafe I invite to visit Germany/Holland/Belgium to look at what is possible if the infrastructure is designed correctly.
    What are you talking about? Nobody in Holland rides on the pavement. They don't have to, because there are cycle lanes available. For me riding on the pavement is a sign of insufficient or inferior cycling infrastructure. The fact that it happens so often in the UK means a lot of people find the road too dangerous or filled up with traffic. Does not happen in Holland
  • w00dsterw00dster Posts: 879
    Here in Milton Keynes we have a shared Cycle / Pavement known as a Red Way. For some of my rides I use the Red Way to get out into the countryside, approx 5 miles for me. I take this as my warm up, so I have no interest in my speed, the return leg being my cool down - again at a slow pace - does screw my Strava average speed up though!
    In my opinion it is the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that they are safe and are not a danger to the pedestrians. A bike can cause injury to pedestrians - the paths are used by families. It can be a pain in the bum when the family and their dog take the entire path, but its up to me to be careful, to watch my speed and to ensure that I am seen. I also use the Red Ways for my commute to work - very handy and very safe. Much safer than the busy roads, especially with all of the dual carriageways and pretty dangerous round abouts we have here.
    For New Towns the Red Way infrastructure is a good way to go, but I can understand how this isn't possible to implement in existing towns and cities.
    On my rides, as soon as I'm in an area where the roads are safe enough to allow me to jump on them I do so. Mainly because it allows me to get my speed up to a reasonable pace.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    w00dster wrote:
    Here in Milton Keynes we have a shared Cycle / Pavement known as a Red Way. For some of my rides I use the Red Way to get out into the countryside, approx 5 miles for me. I take this as my warm up, so I have no interest in my speed, the return leg being my cool down - again at a slow pace - does screw my Strava average speed up though!
    In my opinion it is the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that they are safe and are not a danger to the pedestrians. A bike can cause injury to pedestrians - the paths are used by families. It can be a pain in the bum when the family and their dog take the entire path, but its up to me to be careful, to watch my speed and to ensure that I am seen. I also use the Red Ways for my commute to work - very handy and very safe. Much safer than the busy roads, especially with all of the dual carriageways and pretty dangerous round abouts we have here.
    For New Towns the Red Way infrastructure is a good way to go, but I can understand how this isn't possible to implement in existing towns and cities.
    On my rides, as soon as I'm in an area where the roads are safe enough to allow me to jump on them I do so. Mainly because it allows me to get my speed up to a reasonable pace.
    I studied in Cranfield University for a year 10 years back so I was in around Milton Keynes regularly. I wasn't cycling at the time but from what I remember of all the roundabouts and dual carriageways it could be a frustrating place to cycle on the roads!
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    FJS wrote:
    What is more likely to cause serious harm or death? A car travelling at 30mph + hitting a cyclist or a cyclist travelling at 20mph hitting a pedestrian?

    Note I am not saying the latter cannot ccause either, its just reduced. As for the state of paths being too narrow, that is a matter for your local council to sort. I ride where possible on the road even in Germany but if there is a decent cycle path I will use that instead. Anyone who thinks pavement riding is unsafe I invite to visit Germany/Holland/Belgium to look at what is possible if the infrastructure is designed correctly.
    What are you talking about? Nobody in Holland rides on the pavement. They don't have to, because there are cycle lanes available. For me riding on the pavement is a sign of insufficient or inferior cycling infrastructure. The fact that it happens so often in the UK means a lot of people find the road too dangerous or filled up with traffic. Does not happen in Holland

    Sorry but you are wrong. There are shared pedestrian and cycle paths. If the weather gets better I may go and take a few pics to prove it to you. The vast majority of cycle paths are dedicated but there are still shared paths about. You may not see them in bigger cities like Eindhovem or Amsterdam but out in the smaller towns that border Germany you get them everywhere.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    This is how many dutch towns are beginning to shape.

    Take note of cyclists on both path and road. Would love to see this concept in the UK but I fear it would never take.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=X-2KVNarB4Hlavn8gqgD&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DsSCks9Q8fNQ&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGJ6IowvHVGhHppcafW0xl8Ec2gPQ
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    FJS wrote:
    Anyone who thinks pavement riding is unsafe I invite to visit Germany/Holland/Belgium to look at what is possible if the infrastructure is designed correctly.
    What are you talking about? Nobody in Holland rides on the pavement. They don't have to, because there are cycle lanes available. For me riding on the pavement is a sign of insufficient or inferior cycling infrastructure. The fact that it happens so often in the UK means a lot of people find the road too dangerous or filled up with traffic. Does not happen in Holland

    Sorry but you are wrong. There are shared pedestrian and cycle paths. If the weather gets better I may go and take a few pics to prove it to you. The vast majority of cycle paths are dedicated but there are still shared paths about. You may not see them in bigger cities like Eindhovem or Amsterdam but out in the smaller towns that border Germany you get them everywhere.
    I am Dutch, have lived there most of my life, and used my bike for everyday transport since I was 4 years old, like many. Sorry, but no, you are wrong. I'm sure you can find some example of a shared use pavement somewhere, but it would be extremely unusual. I cannot think of a single example. Perhaps you're confusing it with segregated cycle lanes? It is illegal to cycle on pavements in Holland for anyone over 9 years old. And, for anyone other than very young children or people avoiding temporary roadworks or so, it is certainly frowned upon. Villages, just as towns or cities, tend to have either shared road use with measure in place to slow traffic down, or cycling lanes or cycle paths.
    I'm not sure I understand your argument either. Are you somehow advocating cycling on the pavement as superior to dedicated, preferably segregated, cycle lanes and paths?
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    This is how many dutch towns are beginning to shape.

    Take note of cyclists on both path and road. Would love to see this concept in the UK but I fear it would never take.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=X-2KVNarB4Hlavn8gqgD&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DsSCks9Q8fNQ&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGJ6IowvHVGhHppcafW0xl8Ec2gPQ
    That video is about 'shared space' experiments, with cars, cyclists and pedestrians all sharing the same road space. Like Exhibition Road in London. Nothing to do with cycling on pavements. Almost all cyclists in that video, including old grannies and parents with small children on bikes, cycle on the road, apart from a couple avoiding a lorry blocking the road or hopping on or of the pavement to go to or from a shop.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    Get yourself on the road from Roermond to Venlo just on the border. I have to cycle round pedestrians every time I ride there. Some parts are just grey concrete. No red tarmac. No painted segregated lines. No metal studs in the ground just one strip of concrete. I have lived in and around This area on and off for a decade and I know what I see. I ride across the border through Germany, Netherlands and even into Belgium regularly. I have seen the best and worst of what all 3 countries have to offer. Yes Holland has by far the best infrastructure for cyclists but accept that there are places that still do not have the space to allow for 2 lanes of road, footpath and cycle lane. As you know its hardly the biggest country but has to handle a hell of a lot of traffic.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2136523,6.0171756,3a,75y,12.16h,72.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sblEoA48L_L35PeSxmrFVlA!2e0

    Here is a google street view of a road I regularly ride down. Note that the "path" has NO lines down it to separate cycles from pedestrians. OR are you suggesting I would be prohibited from walking down it? If so how do the poor people even leave their houses here?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.217899,6.0213481,3a,75y,28.02h,59.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_LJK1mGVdAVqgC_3xSrjfw!2e0

    Just cos you may of seen them does not mean they do not exist!
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2136523,6.0171756,3a,75y,12.16h,72.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sblEoA48L_L35PeSxmrFVlA!2e0

    Here is a google street view of a road I regularly ride down. Note that the "path" has NO lines down it to separate cycles from pedestrians. OR are you suggesting I would be prohibited from walking down it? If so how do the poor people even leave their houses here?
    Yes, that is for cycling on, and certainly not intended to be walked on. It's along a main through road in the middle of nowhere; who walks there anyway? One or two local farmers might, but who else?
    But that's just some farms in the middle of nowhere! And it's a clearly demarcated cycling lane! Clearly no example of a pavement intended for shared use. It's a segregated cycle lane, with a separate pavement next to it (although narrow). What you show is examples of a segregated cycle lane that may be used (illegally?) by the odd local pedestrian (although I would be very surprised if they do so regularly; where would they walk to? The next house/village is more cycling or driving distance away), just like people in the UK sometimes walk on the side of main country roads if they have to. But it's certainly no example of 'cycling on the pavement'. Those are not intended for shared use.

    The example in Haren of shared use you showed earlier was much criticised by cyclists, including the blog you referred to. Are you advocating this shared bike/pedestrian use as a positive thing? I'm not sure what this thread is about, really.
  • smoggystevesmoggysteve Posts: 2,918
    So to say that the persons living on that road could not walk on it is wrong? Sorry but you are talking utter bollox mate. It is not in the middle of nowhere its barely on the outskirts of an average sized town.

    This whole purpose of this thread was to counter the police saying cycling on the pavement is dangerous. I say it is not. But you as so many others are too unwilling to just share. Everything has to be segregated. In an ideal world we could do so but guess what it aint so we have to do something bizarre and just get on with what we got. If you can have a dedicated cycle path then good but this is not a perfect world. Learn to share FFS. Only thing that makes any road, pavement or cycle path dangerous is the fooking lunatics that make it dangerous. Educate those that are and we will stop everything being dangerous. You want to cycle on the road, then its perfectly safe is the drivers know how to respect cyclists. So can cycling on the pavement be safe if the cyclist learns to respect the pedestrians. Is that so hard to comprehend for most people?

    But lets move away from Holland. Germany DOES HAVE shared paths and I know of not one serious incident. Maybe the Germans are a bit more sensible than the dutch after all.
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    So to say that the persons living on that road could not walk on it is wrong? Sorry but you are talking utter bollox mate. It is not in the middle of nowhere its barely on the outskirts of an average sized town.

    This whole purpose of this thread was to counter the police saying cycling on the pavement is dangerous. I say it is not. But you as so many others are too unwilling to just share. Everything has to be segregated. In an ideal world we could do so but guess what it aint so we have to do something bizarre and just get on with what we got. If you can have a dedicated cycle path then good but this is not a perfect world. Learn to share FFS. Only thing that makes any road, pavement or cycle path dangerous is the fooking lunatics that make it dangerous. Educate those that are and we will stop everything being dangerous. You want to cycle on the road, then its perfectly safe is the drivers know how to respect cyclists. So can cycling on the pavement be safe if the cyclist learns to respect the pedestrians. Is that so hard to comprehend for most people?

    But lets move away from Holland. Germany DOES HAVE shared paths and I know of not one serious incident. Maybe the Germans are a bit more sensible than the dutch after all.
    I don't like your style of debating at all. You say something controversial, but seem not prepared for people to disagree with you. I'm out of here. Good luck.
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