flood related idiocy

jedster

So...
Don't if you've noticed but it's been a tad damp recently.
Rather a lot of flooding in the Thames valley etc.

One of my routes to the station has a little section where the road floods for a 100m a day or two each year. Can get a bit damp. The other route goes though fields that can flood but is raised up enough that I've never seen the road covered. I've been using that second route this week but it was flooded tuesday, deeper wednesday and I worked from home yesterday.

So what did I do this morning? That's right - went back to route 1. My (suspect it turns out) thinking was that if the road is flooded, I'll just ride on the footpath which is elevated a bit.

Got there and the footpath was covered. Bit committed by then so I carried on. It got hub deep on the footpath with quite a cross flow at one point but I made it through.

Carried on the route to a new stretch which I have never seen flooded. Road was closed but I figured it couldn't be worse than the prior stretch, right? Ahem. Ended up having to get off the bike and wading 200m at knee depth.
The stretch is around Cookham. The Times has an aerial picture of the Cookham floods on the front page today. I am officially an idiot. :oops:

Shortly I will be heading home using a circuitous route around the surrounding hills.

rolf_f

I got turned back by floods almost daily on my rides in Sussex over Christmas though I did ride through one that was just below BB depth. I wouldn't go through anything I thought was deeper - once you've got the BB and freehub and wheel bearings under water you'll be well advised to strip them down and regrease them immediately if you don't want to have to replace them altogether.

iPete

At least sky news wasn't filming! Someone from my club, jump to 2 minutes..
http://news.sky.com/story/1187037/chris ... -thousands

coopster_the_1st

Bourne End to the A4 via Cookham is my normal commute route but reading the road was flooded meant I headed up onto the ridge yesterday.

However, where were the flooded bits? I know the bit by the crown floods and have seen a picture of that but the footpath was clear (maybe this got worse)

Drew123

My usual commute is Cookham to Marlow, but this week I have been mostly hanging out in the kayakradar.com forums...

Kieran_Burns

Rolf F wrote:

I got turned back by floods almost daily on my rides in Sussex over Christmas though I did ride through one that was just below BB depth. I wouldn't go through anything I thought was deeper - once you've got the BB and freehub and wheel bearings under water you'll be well advised to strip them down and regrease them immediately if you don't want to have to replace them altogether.

:oops:

Kieran_Burns

iPete wrote:

At least sky news wasn't filming! Someone from my club, jump to 2 minutes..
http://news.sky.com/story/1187037/chris ... -thousands

I made it through when it was as deep as that... but please see above for the result...

meanredspider

Rolf F wrote:

I got turned back by floods almost daily on my rides in Sussex over Christmas though I did ride through one that was just below BB depth. I wouldn't go through anything I thought was deeper - once you've got the BB and freehub and wheel bearings under water you'll be well advised to strip them down and regrease them immediately if you don't want to have to replace them altogether.

I don't actually think this is particularly good advice. Sure if you've cycled for miles submerged but not if you've done a few feet (and, let's face it, there's only so far you're likely to ride in that depth). I ended up half submerging my Volagi in an epic Highland cloudburst storm. Not only was the BB fine but so was the Di2 battery that also submerged. In reality, provided you're not at silly depths, the water is no more likely to get into the bearings than rain is. Even if it does, there needs to be enough water at sufficient pressure to emulsify the grease.

General (professional) advice on bearings is that maintenance is more likely to introduce contaminants and ruin the bearing than leaving well alone.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

I got turned back by floods almost daily on my rides in Sussex over Christmas though I did ride through one that was just below BB depth. I wouldn't go through anything I thought was deeper - once you've got the BB and freehub and wheel bearings under water you'll be well advised to strip them down and regrease them immediately if you don't want to have to replace them altogether.

I don't actually think this is particularly good advice. Sure if you've cycled for miles submerged but not if you've done a few feet (and, let's face it, there's only so far you're likely to ride in that depth). I ended up half submerging my Volagi in an epic Highland cloudburst storm. Not only was the BB fine but so was the Di2 battery that also submerged. In reality, provided you're not at silly depths, the water is no more likely to get into the bearings than rain is. Even if it does, there needs to be enough water at sufficient pressure to emulsify the grease.

General (professional) advice on bearings is that maintenance is more likely to introduce contaminants and ruin the bearing than leaving well alone.

No, you get water inside the bearings even under normal riding - that's what killed the bearings on my Khamsin. If you immerse something in water, it is likely to get in unless designed not to. See Kierens post.

I suspect your Di2 battery is very much designed to keep the water out (a far easier task than keeping the bearings protected) and maybe you submerged your Volagi when the BB had done relatively few grim miles and the factory grease was in good condition and therefore it survived better. In the case of my Khamsins - the bearings are single sealed and the roughness was water derived corrosion. Introduction of contaminants is not an issue - the bearings were scrap.

That said, it might have been difficult to have got at those bearings in situ (Campagnolo thoughtfully put a metal tube inside the axle presumably to keep contaminants out but as that isn't sealed, mainly what it does is to allow water in but not allow any maintenance) and taking them out would risk damaging them anyway. So at least as far as the wheel and hub bearings go, maybe the answer is to pray to whatever gods you like and hope they are OK.

As for the BB - I've previously left them untouched and replaced when they are worn. Now I am trying the manufacturers recommendation and going to regrease them regularly and see if they last longer.

I submerged an external BB once - that ended up with a much reduced life too!

It's not the same as cars - bikes are often very poorly sealed. Witness the chronic lifespans of 'sealed' headsets.

meanredspider

I don't want to sound arrogant but, many moons ago I spent 3 days at the SKF factory being trained on bearing mounting and maintenance. My first job was as a shift maintenance foreman on a rolling mill. I do understand a fair bit about bearings. A brief submersion is no worse (probably better than) a squirt with a garden hose and certainly infinitely less damaging than a pressure washer. Single seals are also probably better because they also allow moisture to escape. As for the Volagi, I used it as my daily commuter and had done for nearly 1.5 years by the time the BB got submerged. The BB bearings are still sweet. I think you're far more likely to damage these bearings using detergents and degreasers that seep in past the seals and break down the grease than plain old rainwater.
And SKFs advice was very clear from the bearing failure investigations they'd done: far more bearing failures are from maintenance than from any other cause.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

I don't want to sound arrogant but, many moons ago I spent 3 days at the SKF factory being trained on bearing mounting and maintenance. My first job was as a shift maintenance foreman on a rolling mill. I do understand a fair bit about bearings. A brief submersion is no worse (probably better than) a squirt with a garden hose and certainly infinitely less damaging than a pressure washer. Single seals are also probably better because they also allow moisture to escape. As for the Volagi, I used it as my daily commuter and had done for nearly 1.5 years by the time the BB got submerged. The BB bearings are still sweet. I think you're far more likely to damage these bearings using detergents and degreasers that seep in past the seals and break down the grease than plain old rainwater.
And SKFs advice was very clear from the bearing failure investigations they'd done: far more bearing failures are from maintenance than from any other cause.

The bearings might be fine - that isn't the issue. It is the engineering that surrounds them which isn't that great. Immerse the axle and water gets into the axle and it affects the grease that protects the bearings - and then it doesn't get out again. Unless you are going to tell me that the corrosion on my bearings wasn't caused by moisture. I wouldn't use degreaser on a sealed bearing and I haven't suggested that. You'd have to remove the seals to get the fresh grease in which doesn't seem a good idea to me. If SKF think that wiping the old, half washed off dirty grease and replacing it with fresh is harmful then I can only assume their motivation is primarily increased sales.

Also I think you are simplifying things by assuming that all circumstances are equal. For one thing, I wouldn't get 1.5 years out of a set of BB bearings full stop and in any case, it is meaningless to describe lifespan by time alone - miles and conditions are a bit more useful though I know yours put up with all weathers. My Campag Ultratorque bearings only last about 7000 miles without maintenance and that seems to be not unusual - so I'd have long replaced them by 1.5 years let alone some time since.

I hear what you are saying, and I respect your opinion, but you are going to have to do a lot more to convince me that the bearings below (BB and wheel - exactly as removed from the bike) have not suffered due to moisture and lack of maintenance (and that is without flood immersion) - the grease wasn't brown when it was new! Fresh grease on both would have done good IMO. There is plenty enough contamination there that even the poorest of maintenance couldn't have made them worse.

meanredspider

We're slipping somewhat away from the point. Brief submersion makes very little odds is what I'm saying. What you've said I think mostly confirms that those bearings have got into that state without immersion. I'd suggest that salt or detergent has got into those bearings. I also don't really understand why BB bearing are failing so soon - they're capable of far more load and far more cycles than 7000 miles will put through them. Far more likely the grease is getting damaged either by salt water, detergent or degreasant. If you wreck the grease, it can no longer protect the parts. They rust and the particles and rough surfaces destroy the bearing exponentially.
Why SKF say what they do about maintenance is that conditions are rarely clean enough to avoid at least some dirt getting into the bearings - that's what then kills them. Or (and this won't happen on a BB bearing, which has a pretty simple task) they are over-greased and overheat.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

I also don't really understand why BB bearing are failing so soon - they're capable of far more load and far more cycles than 7000 miles will put through them.

Well, they apparently are not. This is commonplace - the bearings often don't last long on bikes. They are often under engineered and this seems fairly well known. I'll stick to what Campagnolo says (clean and grease every 4-6000km) as it fits with what I can see. Certainly salt water could have got in via winter roads but not detergent/degreaser. Here, the advice seems to support what I see with my eyes. What you got from SKF is, from my perspective, just hearsay that doesn't take into account the specifics of these situations (and still misunderstanding as again I think you are still assuming that I advocate degreasing).

You are right - those bearings have not been immersed - but the point is that it shows that even without immersion water can get in there. With immersion, it is inevitable that much more water will get in there much more quickly. Now given that it is pretty obvious that my BB bearings would have benefited from regreasing in accordance with manufacturers instructions, it would surely be daft not to do the same after complete immersion?

And I'm really not sure what you mean by brief immersion. If you ride through floodwater for half a minute, then I suspect any longer really isn't going to make any further difference - the damage will be already done.

Fireblade96

Well, in spite of having got wet feet cycling through floodwater earlier this week, today I couldn't resist so went out for another play.
I thought the path through the riverside meadow was only a couple of inches deep, and mostly it was - but, once I was committed, I found the 50m stretch where it was over hub deep. And on a fixie, you gotta keep pedalling.
Ho hum. Wet feet again, but it was fun :-)



Tomorrow I'm going to service the wheel bearings just as a precaution. I've got mismatched wheels on the fixie as the bearings on the rear disintegrated last year, so a dab of grease might be advised. Then I'm going to get some cartridge bearing wheels made up...

Agent57

Rolf F wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I also don't really understand why BB bearing are failing so soon - they're capable of far more load and far more cycles than 7000 miles will put through them.

Well, they apparently are not. This is commonplace - the bearings often don't last long on bikes.

Two of my bikes are around 25 years old, and have yet to need any replacement bearings.

They don't make 'em like they used to!

rjsterry

Agent57 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I also don't really understand why BB bearing are failing so soon - they're capable of far more load and far more cycles than 7000 miles will put through them.

Well, they apparently are not. This is commonplace - the bearings often don't last long on bikes.

Two of my bikes are around 25 years old, and have yet to need any replacement bearings.

They don't make 'em like they used to!

Quite. Think I'll stick with sealed square taper for the time being as I get through about one a decade (around 50-60,000 miles at a very rough calculation).

meanredspider

Rolf - I'm not going to quote because I'm doing this all via an iPhone whilst I'm away (at home in Scotland) but I still suspect it's more than just water getting into your bearing. Salt, as you say, is pretty much inevitable in the UK. You say no detergents - do you only clean your bike with plain water? I really don't think BB bearings are under engineered these days - they're certainly big enough for the loads and speeds they experience. Whether they're of sufficient quality as supplied I don't know - possibly not. In any case, the point I was trying to make in the beginning is that brief immersion (a minute or so just below the surface) is really only of the same proportion as playing a garden hose across your bike as you rinse it off after a ride on a dirty winter's day.
As for regreasing - yes, fine, IF you are scrupulously clean and avoid any particles getting into the bearings. That's quite difficult to do in the average garage or shed - especially if the bearings need to be cleaned and regreased in situ. I'd never even bother trying.

desweller

It's not the water that is the problem. But floodwater is not clean - it carries all kinds of nasty abrasives that will give the simple seals on most bearings a pretty hard time, and they don't run away with the water either - they get left behind and continue to do damage after the bike has dried out.

jedster

sorry, been away

worst bit was the meadows between cookham and maindenhead (Wildbrook Common?) but the path was submerged on the Bourne End side of Cookham Bridge too

On the topic or bearings, I am getting a little more noise. Front is a hub dyno - maybe a little noise. Rear is Alfine 11 (still quiet). I pay up for an annual service from the LBS to regrease bearings and replace cables, I do everything else. It's probably due so I'm going to get it in fairly soon.

arran77

iPete wrote:

At least sky news wasn't filming! Someone from my club, jump to 2 minutes..
http://news.sky.com/story/1187037/chris ... -thousands

slowbike

DesWeller wrote:

It's not the water that is the problem. But floodwater is not clean - it carries all kinds of nasty abrasives that will give the simple seals on most bearings a pretty hard time, and they don't run away with the water either - they get left behind and continue to do damage after the bike has dried out.

Exactly my findings - after a brief encounter with a "flood" a couple of years ago which involved riding over hub deep for less than a minute, 4 months later my bottom bracket (square taper) needed replacing. I had to do the bearings of the freehub as well, but the rest of the bearings on the wheels were fine and are still in use 2 years later - as they are cartridge bearings I couldn't do much to "maintain them" other than flush them with some light oil and then add some grease as best I could.

coopster_the_1st

jedster wrote:

worst bit was the meadows between cookham and maindenhead (Wildbrook Common?) but the path was submerged on the Bourne End side of Cookham Bridge too

Thanks for the info. I've never know either of those places to flood before but can see Wildbrook Common being a flood plain for the Jubilee River.

But the question we want to know is what time is your scalp available? :twisted:

I'm normally heading over Cookham Bridge around 7:35-7:40.

jedster

Tend to be heading over the brideg a little earlier than you - 7:10 to 7:25 to catch a train at maidenhead. You'll have to get up a bit earlier! I'm on a black on one pompetamine in full commuting spec (guards, rack, panier, etc)