My carbon tubular wheels - fine for Paris Roubaix challenge?

look565wong

To all wheel aficionado out there,

In a moment of madness & peer pressure, stupidity more like I've went and entered to ride the Paris Roubaix Challenge with a group of my club mates this coming April. 166k long with 60 odd km of bone shaking cobbles ........ Pure torture for my fragile 64kg (140 lb) frame!

Obviously, to help with my "enjoyment" of the ride, I would need to look at my bike set up.

At this present moment, I'm planning on riding my Ti Van Nicholas with the intention of using my Fast Forward F2R Carbon tubular wheels with some new FMB 25 or 27mm Paris Roubaix tubular tyres (if I can get hold of some)!

So, the first question in my mind is would my wheels be up to the job? I did contemplate on getting a pair of handbuild tubulars from Wheelsmith since he's local to me, but obviuosly i want to explore more options. Any feed back from wheel builders or folks who's done the ride would be most welcome! Thanks in advance!

P.S wheels is my major concerns as I'll also be modifying others like bar tape, extra padded shorts etc.

Cheers

cycleclinic

Well carbon tubs will fair better than carbon clinchers. If you use a wide tubs and 80 psi I would have though you would be fine. Personally my wheels for cobbles this year are Ambrosio Nemesis on old Dura Ace hubs.

Ugo will be along in a moment with something, he's riden it before at least. I doing the other one a week before.

look565wong

Thanks Cycleclinic, do you think 25mm would be ok or should I go the whole hog 27mm? The ony problem I think I may be tight for the clearance. Currently I have Vittoria evo corsa CX 23mm for summer riding, but I wouldn't think that'll be up to the job?

The Ambrosio neminsis was one of my option, but to buy a new set of wheels just for 1 ride seems a bit excessive, even for my standard :-)

I take it you're riding the "Ronde Van Vlaanderen Cyclo" on the 5th?
All the best!

Cheers

Monty Dog

It's worth asking yourself the question whether you'd be comfortable riding your wheels into a kerb? There's plenty of holes and gaps in some of the pave sectors and be prepared for some big hits. In places, there's big gaps between the stones that can catch a wheel too. Ridden P-Rx a few times, you'll get a hammering regardless - the wheels will probably survive but the deep, stiff rims will do nothing to reduce the shocks through your hands and wrists - it's the discomfort through your wrists and backside that'll likely slow your progress rather than your bike.

look565wong

Sound advice Monty Dog, Many Thanks!

Any helpful advice would be very much appreciated re wrist & backside department. Obviously double wrapped bar tape, gel mits & 2 pairs of padded short etc would be the order of the day.

In terms of my carbon tubular wheel-set, its a shallow 22mm rims so hopefully it wouldn't be too stiff compare to the deeper sections. I think changing to thicker tyres with a low-ish pressure 80-85 say would help in terms of comfort.

"whether you'd be comfortable riding your wheels into a kerb?"
Thats a good question, food for thoughts I guess.........

Cheers

pitchshifter

A £1500 wheelset for Paris Roubaix sportive would make me feel uncomfortable before I even hit the cobbles but each to their own.

edhornby

why not just get a cheap set of 32spoke clinchers off ebay and have derek true them to make sure there are no loose spokes or dodgy tensions

set of vittoria pave evo tyres and job done

cycleclinic

Yes that is the one I am doing. Your Vittoria Corsa CX tyres are likely to not survive that well. 25mm tyres should be enough. I think double wrapping you bar tape and good mits will make more of a difference to comfort that changin rims from deep to shallow. A high spoke count however will always help with this kind of course it is like riding a rock garden and you don't find moutain bikers doing that on 20F/24R wheels.

Iamnot Wiggins

Haven't done P-RX but did do Flanders last year. Double wrap tape is a definite!

ugo.santalucia

The Paris-Roubaix cobbles require a lot of technique... you can wrap gel in the bars, use bigger tyres and all of that, but ultimately if you don't know how to ride them, it's all in vain. You have to work on your position on the bike, so that you don't put too much weight on the bars. NEVER ride with your hands on the hoods, either the top of the bars or the drops are the correct position. Don't grab the bars tight or you won't be able to un-clench your hands after a section (yes, they are that bad). Train yourself to keep a solid power output for 10 minutes or so. Most pave' last about 5-10 minutes. If you have a 39, stay on the small ring and only shift the rear to find your cadence. if you have a compact, stay on the big ring, except Mons En Pevele and Arenberg, which are too hard for the big ring.
On a dry day you can use the gutter a lot and maybe your carbon wheels are not out of place. On a wet day or after a spell of heavy rain you can't use the gutter, you only have one line and if the road is busy with inexperienced riders, accidents are very likely. Then you don't want expensive carbon wheels or frame.

Have a look, this is a dry day of course and they are the best pave' riders the world has ever seen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4

look565wong

pitchshifter wrote:

A £1500 wheelset for Paris Roubaix sportive would make me feel uncomfortable before I even hit the cobbles but each to their own.

Very true, but I only paid £980 from Wiggles

edhornby wrote:

why not just get a cheap set of 32spoke clinchers off ebay and have derek true them to make sure there are no loose spokes or dodgy tensions

set of vittoria pave evo tyres and job done

I already have a set of fairly new Fulcrum 5's which I can use if need be, but I'm reluctant to ride clinchers on the course for obvious reasons.
But I suppose I can look for a set of high spoke alloy tubular wheels from ebay to keep the cost down.

Thanks again for the input chaps, very much appreciated!

Cheers

look565wong

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Paris-Roubaix cobbles require a lot of technique... you can wrap gel in the bars, use bigger tyres and all of that, but ultimately if you don't know how to ride them, it's all in vain. You have to work on your position on the bike, so that you don't put too much weight on the bars. NEVER ride with your hands on the hoods, either the top of the bars or the drops are the correct position. Don't grab the bars tight or you won't be able to un-clench your hands after a section (yes, they are that bad). Train yourself to keep a solid power output for 10 minutes or so. Most pave' last about 5-10 minutes. If you have a 39, stay on the small ring and only shift the rear to find your cadence. if you have a compact, stay on the big ring, except Mons En Pevele and Arenberg, which are too hard for the big ring.
On a dry day you can use the gutter a lot and maybe your carbon wheels are not out of place. On a wet day or after a spell of heavy rain you can't use the gutter, you only have one line and if the road is busy with inexperienced riders, accidents are very likely. Then you don't want expensive carbon wheels or frame.

Have a look, this is a dry day of course and they are the best pave' riders the world has ever seen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4

Awesome Ugo, that's great advice!

I'll definitely remember those points you made, in fact I'll just keep it to myself just to have a wee edge over my mates! just kidding.............

I just hope I haven't bitten more than I could chew................ :shock:

Thanks again!

mamba80

Great bit of footage ugo, amazing bike racing!

I d go nemesis myself, you ll hopefully stil have a great set of wheels to use at home when or if you get back

look565wong

mamba80 wrote:

Great bit of footage ugo, amazing bike racing!

I d go nemesis myself, you ll hopefully stil have a great set of wheels to use at home when or if you get back

That's what I keep telling myself Just need to convince myself!

ugo.santalucia

mamba80 wrote:

Great bit of footage ugo, amazing bike racing!

Have you seen Moser on the bike towards the end of the video? His position on the bike is simply incredible... Poulidor could not stay on his wheel...
When I was a kid I didn't like Moser... I was a Saronni fan (in the 70/80s in Italy it was a dualism the likes of Coppi and Bartali or Anquetil/Poulidor), but in time I got to appreciate that Moser was the Man!

look565wong

Hi Ugo,

Quote "You have to work on your position on the bike, so that you don't put too much weight on the bars...."

Can you elaborate on that please, would working on my "core" strength (which I don't but should do) helps?

Many Thanks in advance!

Cheers

greasedscotsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Paris-Roubaix cobbles require a lot of technique... you can wrap gel in the bars, use bigger tyres and all of that, but ultimately if you don't know how to ride them, it's all in vain. You have to work on your position on the bike, so that you don't put too much weight on the bars. NEVER ride with your hands on the hoods, either the top of the bars or the drops are the correct position. Don't grab the bars tight or you won't be able to un-clench your hands after a section (yes, they are that bad). Train yourself to keep a solid power output for 10 minutes or so. Most pave' last about 5-10 minutes. If you have a 39, stay on the small ring and only shift the rear to find your cadence. if you have a compact, stay on the big ring, except Mons En Pevele and Arenberg, which are too hard for the big ring.
On a dry day you can use the gutter a lot and maybe your carbon wheels are not out of place. On a wet day or after a spell of heavy rain you can't use the gutter, you only have one line and if the road is busy with inexperienced riders, accidents are very likely. Then you don't want expensive carbon wheels or frame.

All good advice, but I would add how important speed over the pavé is. It's surprising how much smoother if feels if you can maintain your speed. I've always plodded along on the tarmac sections (maybe sat on a few wheels) and then ridden the pavé as fast as I can. And yes, I know that's difficult when your getting towards the end and your tired, but it does make a difference.

Oh and watch out for the Camphin-en-Pévèle and Carrefour de l’Arbre sections, along with Mons-en-Pévèle and Arenberg as mentioned, all very difficult sections!

greasedscotsman

Look565wong wrote:

I already have a set of fairly new Fulcrum 5's which I can use if need be, but I'm reluctant to ride clinchers on the course for obvious reasons.

I think I would prefer to ride clinchers. Wouldn't fancy trying to get a spare tub if I'd gone though all the spares I was carrying with me.

Monty Dog

As Ugo pointed out, riding the pave is more about technique - there's very little ascent/descent so weightweenie-ness isn't going to deliver much benefit. Vittoria Paves and their like are fine, there are few 'sharps' IME so it's more about tyre volume and cush. At 64kg, you're the same weight as me and you can run tubs safely at 55/60psi. I disagree about riding on the small chainring through Arenberg, Mons en Pevele and Carrefour - launching yourself into the 'trench' at 50kph is a fantastic experience and you really feel what it's like for the pros. Build-up your leg strength by riding on the big-ring - quad power is where it is at - seated climbing drills are good but it does require good core strength. Fitting a shorter stem and pushing the saddle back on the rails helps to get your weight back helps - the bigger the gear you can turn means that your backside is literally hovering over the saddle and your legs act as suspension - if you try and sit down and relax you will simply get battered and bounced all over the place, making it difficult to hold your line. Following someone who knows the course is good too - some sectors it's about staying on the 'crown' e.g. Arenberg, whereas with others, you'll often track between the gutter, crown and back again.

ugo.santalucia

Monty Dog wrote:

I disagree about riding on the small chainring through Arenberg, Mons en Pevele and Carrefour - launching yourself into the 'trench' at 50kph is a fantastic experience and you really feel what it's like for the pros.

Yeah, that was my mistake... launching myself into Arenberg at 40 Kph and then slowly sinking into a 13 Kph slog on the big ring... IMO opinion if you can't keep the speed high, it's best to be already in the small ring as changing ring on the cobbles is an almost sure mishap. A 39 x 14 develops quite some speed
Other secteurs are faster and you can realistically keep 30 Kph for 2-3 Km, occasionally a tad more, which means you really glide on the stones... it's really hard work and you get to the end of the sector shattered

cycleclinic

The techniques you all describe for riding cobbles are just the same as mountain bikers use, weight ditribution, hovering over the saddle e.t.c. This is all stuff I am used too off road. Like wise off road there are people who make it look easy and those who make it look hard it is down to the technique.

look565wong

Many Thanks for all you guys great advice!

I think I'll need to start some serious training from now on..........

thecycleclinic wrote:

The techniques you all describe for riding cobbles are just the same as mountain bikers use, weight ditribution, hovering over the saddle e.t.c. This is all stuff I am used too off road. Like wise off road there are people who make it look easy and those who make it look hard it is down to the technique.

I'll be the ones that make it look hard I'm afraid :oops:

Ugo, just out of interest - what were you riding for the PR Challenge if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers

ugo.santalucia

Look565wong wrote:

Ugo, just out of interest - what were you riding for the PR Challenge if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers

Didn't do the PR Challenge, I did the full Paris-Roubaix cyclo organised every other year by the Roubaix Velo club... a better event

I did it on my Croix de Fer... I had 28 mm Gatorskin, but they are dreadful tyres far too hard and unresponsive. I'll do it again next year, again with a cross bike, probably with fast gravel tyres, like Vittoria XN 32... 50-60 PSI

mamba80

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Great bit of footage ugo, amazing bike racing!

Have you seen Moser on the bike towards the end of the video? His position on the bike is simply incredible... Poulidor could not stay on his wheel...
When I was a kid I didn't like Moser... I was a Saronni fan (in the 70/80s in Italy it was a dualism the likes of Coppi and Bartali or Anquetil/Poulidor), but in time I got to appreciate that Moser was the Man!

Couldn't agree more ! these are the names I grew up with and were my hero's before drugs, helmets and everything else spoilt it all
every bike had tubs and the debate was cotton or silk, Reynolds or Columbus motorists were never a problem as there were so few cyclists we were just tolerated as a bunch of eccentrics.

PR always held that magic place as much as the tdf and its famous climbs.

But I d still go for the Nemisis, you ll regret any other choice.

wormscoffer

Hello all

I don't want to hijack the thread but in the hope I can get a reply that might be useful to other readers of it I'll ask my question as it's in the same vein.

I'll also be doing this event on my Boardman Team CX. Can anyone tell me if I should ride it on my 35mm tyres or should downsize (I use 23mm during the summer) and at 90Kg what pressure would be recommended?

Thanks and if I should start another thread please say.

Andrew

ugo.santalucia

wormscoffer wrote:

Hello all

I don't want to hijack the thread but in the hope I can get a reply that might be useful to other readers of it I'll ask my question as it's in the same vein.

I'll also be doing this event on my Boardman Team CX. Can anyone tell me if I should ride it on my 35mm tyres or should downsize (I use 23mm during the summer) and at 90Kg what pressure would be recommended?

Thanks and if I should start another thread please say.

Andrew

35 are perfect, but don't use knobbly tyres, they are too slow on the tarmac... I will use 32 mm Vittoria XN, to give you an idea. Touring tyres are fine. Pressure should be around 60-70 PSI for those at your weight

thegreatdivide

mamba80 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Great bit of footage ugo, amazing bike racing!

Have you seen Moser on the bike towards the end of the video? His position on the bike is simply incredible... Poulidor could not stay on his wheel...
When I was a kid I didn't like Moser... I was a Saronni fan (in the 70/80s in Italy it was a dualism the likes of Coppi and Bartali or Anquetil/Poulidor), but in time I got to appreciate that Moser was the Man!

Couldn't agree more ! these are the names I grew up with and were my hero's before drugs, helmets and everything else spoilt it all
every bike had tubs and the debate was cotton or silk, Reynolds or Columbus motorists were never a problem as there were so few cyclists we were just tolerated as a bunch of eccentrics.

PR always held that magic place as much as the tdf and its famous climbs.

But I d still go for the Nemisis, you ll regret any other choice.

You mean before drugs were illegal.

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

You mean before drugs were illegal.

I think he means before EPO, or before they started checking more thoroughly and public perception changed. Those caught in the 60s and 70s were never finger-pointed by cycling fans, who thought it was impossible to race at that level for so many days without taking something. Performance enhancing the way we know it was not on the cards, the consensus was drugs were necessary to keep racing from March to October.
When a rider only races 4-6 weeks per year, he no longer has that alibi with the fans, I suppose.

greasedscotsman

Another idea is to take a route card, either taped to the stem or in your jersey pocket. Nothing too detailed, just sector number, distance, maybe highlight some of the worst bits. Can be useful to have some idea where you are and what's about to come up, if your about to do Wallers or Hornaing.

look565wong

greasedscotsman wrote:

Another idea is to take a route card, either taped to the stem or in your jersey pocket. Nothing too detailed, just sector number, distance, maybe highlight some of the worst bits. Can be useful to have some idea where you are and what's about to come up, if your about to do Wallers or Hornaing.

Good advice, just like the pros.

Did that for the "Novo Colli" of the climbs a couple years ago - useful indeed!

Many thanks!

wormscoffer

@ugo.santalucia - thanks.