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deda carbon bars cracked (again)

markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,017
edited June 2014 in Workshop
Brand new deda superleggero carbon bars cracked at 5nm fitting to the deda stem so not f**king happy.
Bought these from wiggle going to see what hey have to say.Well I know what they will say.
Very light bars wafer thin.
Can they be repaired?
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  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    No. Next time don't over torque them.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    Why not wait to see what Wiggle have to say? I have always found them to be very reasonable. The crack is in the classic place for overtightening the stem clamp, but if you are certain they have never been used and show no signs of any wear then I reckon Wiggle would be reasonable.

    Carbon can be repaired but I am not sure I would want a repaired handlebar...then again I use some alloy Cinelli bars that must be 25 years old and I don't worry about them when I probably should.
  • markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,017
    Grill wrote:
    No. Next time don't over torque them.
    5nm is to tight?
    Colnago c60 Eps super record 11
    Pinarello F8 with sram etap
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    edited December 2013
    markyone wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    No. Next time don't over torque them.
    5nm is too tight?

    Oh dear! So you did fit them (missed that from your original post) and they are now cracked. Makes it a much harder argument since who is to know exactly how much force was applied. One could understand any supplier taking a "you'll have to try a warranty claim and see how you get on" approach.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    In this case it clearly was as you can see perfectly where the clamp has gone into the carbon. Check manufactuerers specifications and also you should make certain that your torque wrench is in spec.

    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.
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  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    Manuf specs on deda stems are 6-8nm depending on model
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  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,192
    bummer, did you tighten the clamp bolts in the correct order and obey the top-bottom equal gap instruction?

    tbh even with alloy stems/bars i only tighten until they are secure, typically this is far below the maximum torque
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,017
    sungod wrote:
    bummer, did you tighten the clamp bolts in the correct order and obey the top-bottom equal gap instruction?

    tbh even with alloy stems/bars i only tighten until they are secure, typically this is far below the maximum torque
    Yes done all that,i think I might just have to buy again :( cant see wiggle coughing up,oh well.
    Colnago c60 Eps super record 11
    Pinarello F8 with sram etap
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,017
    Rolf F wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?
    That's what I was thinking,i have been looking on line for alloy bars but not found much.
    Colnago c60 Eps super record 11
    Pinarello F8 with sram etap
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,651
    5nm can be too tight on some carbon parts. I've always been wary of this and often on 5nm settings and found time and again that when I tighten by 'feel' I am below 5nm.

    I rode a Deda Superzero seatpost at 5nm and that is deformed and looks dodgy and I won't be using it again, it will be sawn in half and thrown in the skip.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    markyone wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?
    That's what I was thinking,i have been looking on line for alloy bars but not found much.

    Same here. I just got a set of the same bars so I might end up being cowardly and getting the LBS to fit them to the stem! :oops:

    Incidentally, did yours come with any packaging? Mine came from Ribble (which, to be fair, is far cheaper than anywhere else I found - £169 before the Christmas 10% extra) but just in a cardboard box wrapped in bubble wrap with no specs or anything. The Superleggero Stem on the other hand is neatly packed with a sheet full of torque settings in 47 languages.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Rolf F wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?

    Didn't look at the weight of these. Most carbon bars are 250g+ with a few exceptions (these being one). I have Ritchey ECS Curve bars which come in at 235g which puts most carbon to shame. Bars are no the place to be saving weight at the expense of durability. My Wyndy is under 6kg with those bars and if I really wanted to shave another 50g, I'd strip the paint before going to carbon bars.
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  • markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,017
    Rolf F wrote:
    markyone wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?
    That's what I was thinking,i have been looking on line for alloy bars but not found much.

    Same here. I just got a set of the same bars so I might end up being cowardly and getting the LBS to fit them to the stem! :oops:

    Incidentally, did yours come with any packaging? Mine came from Ribble (which, to be fair, is far cheaper than anywhere else I found - £169 before the Christmas 10% extra) but just in a cardboard box wrapped in bubble wrap with no specs or anything. The Superleggero Stem on the other hand is neatly packed with a sheet full of torque settings in 47 languages.
    Same as yourself just bars in a box with bubble wrap very disappointed.
    Do you think they are real?
    I cant really remember about the stem.
    Colnago c60 Eps super record 11
    Pinarello F8 with sram etap
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    markyone wrote:
    Same as yourself just bars in a box with bubble wrap very disappointed.
    Do you think they are real?
    I cant really remember about the stem.

    Oh yes - I'm sure they are real. If I start doubting what the likes of Wiggle and Ribble are selling then I'd be scared to buy anything online! :lol:

    TBH, the less packaging the better IMO - I just expected more and some do's and don't s on a product like this are always appreciated.
    Grill wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Still don't know why people buy these things. My alu bars are lighter, stiffer, cheaper and an assload stronger.

    Really? What alloy bars can you get that weigh less than 180 grams?

    Didn't look at the weight of these. Most carbon bars are 250g+ with a few exceptions (these being one). I have Ritchey ECS Curve bars which come in at 235g which puts most carbon to shame. Bars are no the place to be saving weight at the expense of durability. My Wyndy is under 6kg with those bars and if I really wanted to shave another 50g, I'd strip the paint before going to carbon bars.

    On a personal basis, I weigh 59kg. Therefore any 'super-stiff' bars are likely to be too stiff for me. Furthermore, If I'm putting far less body weight through my bars than a lot of riders do, then I think it is reasonable to suppose that my lightweight carbon bars will be rather less stressed than many folks alloy bars. So if it is worth me worrying about carbon bars then there are an awful lot of complacent heavy folk using alloy bars who probably need to worry a lot more than I do!

    Besides, MTBers seem to be happy to use carbon bars and they give their stuff far more stick than we do.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Fair enough. From a vfm standpoint I'd rather put my cash elsewhere.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Jon_1976Jon_1976 Posts: 690
    mfin wrote:
    5nm can be too tight on some carbon parts. I've always been wary of this and often on 5nm settings and found time and again that when I tighten by 'feel' I am below 5nm.

    I rode a Deda Superzero seatpost at 5nm and that is deformed and looks dodgy and I won't be using it again, it will be sawn in half and thrown in the skip.

    I can imagine 5nm being able to damage carbon parts. I tightened all the bolts (stem, seaport, etc) with a regular length allen key and just did it by feel. Admittedly this was on an alu bike with alu parts, but I tightened them to the point where (imo) it would be unwise to go further. Never suffered any slippage. At a later date, I bought a Ritchey torqkey and was pretty shocked/surprised that it wanted to tighten the bolts even more before 'clicking' out. Of course, the torqkey could have been way off in terms of calibration but it felt like 5nm was overkill for those bolts.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,651
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    5nm can be too tight on some carbon parts. I've always been wary of this and often on 5nm settings and found time and again that when I tighten by 'feel' I am below 5nm.

    I rode a Deda Superzero seatpost at 5nm and that is deformed and looks dodgy and I won't be using it again, it will be sawn in half and thrown in the skip.

    I can imagine 5nm being able to damage carbon parts. I tightened all the bolts (stem, seaport, etc) with a regular length allen key and just did it by feel. Admittedly this was on an alu bike with alu parts, but I tightened them to the point where (imo) it would be unwise to go further. Never suffered any slippage. At a later date, I bought a Ritchey torqkey and was pretty shocked/surprised that it wanted to tighten the bolts even more before 'clicking' out. Of course, the torqkey could have been way off in terms of calibration but it felt like 5nm was overkill for those bolts.

    I completely agree with what you said, I have done the same thing myself...

    Then I did an experiment with one of those Torque keys to try to compare it to this BBB torque wrench http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/bbb-torquefix-kit-btl73/rp-prod60766?_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:BBB+-+Tools|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:225299UK_BBB+TorqueFix+Kit+BTL73&gclid=CLPStb_N07sCFQHHtAodnW0Aaw which admittedly is at the lower end of it's range when set to 5nm, and found the Ritchey Torque key was definitely pretty damn close to that BBB one set at 5nm.

    (Carbon assembly paste adds a good amount of friction so is worth using)
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    I can imagine 5nm being able to damage carbon parts. I tightened all the bolts (stem, seaport, etc) with a regular length allen key and just did it by feel. Admittedly this was on an alu bike with alu parts, but I tightened them to the point where (imo) it would be unwise to go further. Never suffered any slippage. At a later date, I bought a Ritchey torqkey and was pretty shocked/surprised that it wanted to tighten the bolts even more before 'clicking' out. Of course, the torqkey could have been way off in terms of calibration but it felt like 5nm was overkill for those bolts.

    The thing is, the design of the Ritchey Torqkey means that you can't get a big amount of leverage so you don't swing off it like a gorilla and cause damage. That's why it feels like you're putting loads of effort in.
  • FatTedFatTed Posts: 1,214
    I swapped by Deda 100 for the Superleggero, same dimensions lighter and I think more comfortable, although that may be the new bar tape.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,651
    DKay wrote:
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    I can imagine 5nm being able to damage carbon parts. I tightened all the bolts (stem, seaport, etc) with a regular length allen key and just did it by feel. Admittedly this was on an alu bike with alu parts, but I tightened them to the point where (imo) it would be unwise to go further. Never suffered any slippage. At a later date, I bought a Ritchey torqkey and was pretty shocked/surprised that it wanted to tighten the bolts even more before 'clicking' out. Of course, the torqkey could have been way off in terms of calibration but it felt like 5nm was overkill for those bolts.

    The thing is, the design of the Ritchey Torqkey means that you can't get a big amount of leverage so you don't swing off it like a gorilla and cause damage. That's why it feels like you're putting loads of effort in.

    You're still tightening more than you would with a normal allen key, that's the point (well, at least what Jon1976 and I have experienced). Tested it to suss it out whether the 'feel' it was too much was true or not.
  • Jon_1976Jon_1976 Posts: 690
    mfin wrote:
    DKay wrote:
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    I can imagine 5nm being able to damage carbon parts. I tightened all the bolts (stem, seaport, etc) with a regular length allen key and just did it by feel. Admittedly this was on an alu bike with alu parts, but I tightened them to the point where (imo) it would be unwise to go further. Never suffered any slippage. At a later date, I bought a Ritchey torqkey and was pretty shocked/surprised that it wanted to tighten the bolts even more before 'clicking' out. Of course, the torqkey could have been way off in terms of calibration but it felt like 5nm was overkill for those bolts.

    The thing is, the design of the Ritchey Torqkey means that you can't get a big amount of leverage so you don't swing off it like a gorilla and cause damage. That's why it feels like you're putting loads of effort in.

    You're still tightening more than you would with a normal allen key, that's the point (well, at least what Jon1976 and I have experienced). Tested it to suss it out whether the 'feel' it was too much was true or not.

    Glad you knew what I was on about 8)

    I've only got experience with alloy components but what I've found is the stem bolts (holding the bars) don't needed to be cranked at all. I just use a normal length allen key, hold it about halfway and tighten until the key starts to feel uncomfortable in my hand. Its a subjective methods but it works for me and I've never had the bars, stem or seat post slip. The torqkey tightened the bolts quite a lot more, excessively so in my opinion.
    Going back to stem bolts, when I've been experimenting with bar angles I've found it necessary to loosen the 4 bolts a lot just to get the bars to move so they really don't need a ton of torque. Add in assembly paste (for carbon parts) and there is no need to go mad.

    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(
  • Jon_1976 wrote:
    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(

    Where do you stand on carbon frames, forks and wheels?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • lawrenceslawrences Posts: 1,011
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(

    Where do you stand on carbon frames, forks and wheels?

    You don't clamp anything onto a frame, a fork or a wheel.
  • Jon_1976Jon_1976 Posts: 690
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(

    Where do you stand on carbon frames, forks and wheels?

    I'm not sure standing on them is the best thing to do to be honest.

    On a financial standpoint, I'm far too poor to own such items :|
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,475
    I marginally cracked one of the below stems, when I tightened it to the maximum recommended setting - give CRC their due, I sent them pictures of the damage (not as bad as the OP's) explained what I had done, and what torque wrench I had used - recommended Sealey one, and they replaced it FOC and said to keep the original.

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ratio-tacto-road-alloy-carbon-wrap-stem/rp-prod59629
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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,863
    How do you you know you applied 5nm any of the cheaper torque wrenches or those torque keys are not very accurate
    It could be that. Carbon paste should be applied when fitting carbon parts as the bolt have to tightened less. It is not the bars fault unfortunatley.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    lawrences wrote:
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(

    Where do you stand on carbon frames, forks and wheels?

    You don't clamp anything onto a frame, a fork or a wheel.

    How does your seatpost stay up?! Then there are the headset bearings that you press in that exert an outward pressure on the headtube (much more worrying than a clamping force). Then there are the wheels that I clamp into my frame (some with carbon dropouts) and the front mech that clamps to the seat tube.......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • lawrenceslawrences Posts: 1,011
    Rolf F wrote:
    lawrences wrote:
    Jon_1976 wrote:
    Got to agree with Grill, I don't see the appeal with carbon bars and stems :(

    Where do you stand on carbon frames, forks and wheels?

    You don't clamp anything onto a frame, a fork or a wheel.

    How does your seatpost stay up?! Then there are the headset bearings that you press in that exert an outward pressure on the headtube (much more worrying than a clamping force). Then there are the wheels that I clamp into my frame (some with carbon dropouts) and the front mech that clamps to the seat tube.......

    Fair enough.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,584
    How do you you know you applied 5nm any of the cheaper torque wrenches or those torque keys are not very accurate
    It could be that. Carbon paste should be applied when fitting carbon parts as the bolt have to tightened less. It is not the bars fault unfortunatley.

    Well if the torque wrench is out sufficiently or the OP didn't follow the fitting instructions then the bars are not at fault. Unless it specifies the use of carbon paste then that's neither here nor there as far as getting money back goes.

    If it were me I'd be asking for my money back and I'd get the torque wrench tested if Wiggle wouldn't play ball. If it turned out that was the problem fair enough but it's a far whack to write off without knowing for sure.
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