Advice on hand built wheels

robertsims

Hi, I'm after a new set on wheels for my roadbike with budget of about 200-250 quid. Was going to get fulcrum 5s but many on here advise on hand builts as more reliable and easier to repair etc.

Done bit of research but after some advice. My lbs has recommended some h plus son archetype rims (which I'm happy with after some research as was going to go with open pros) on a 105 hub with sapim spokes (I forgot to ask which - I assume race). 32 spoke front and rear for £250.

Does this seem reasonable? Any other recommendations? Would you so with 105 hubs (I'm happy servicing cup and cone as done it before but means can't have less than 32 spokes)?

I weigh between 83-85kg depemding on time of year, run 23mm rubino pro tyres. I commute into work once or twice a week 12miles each way but mainly all on cycle paths. Go out most weekends for 40-65 miles with plenty of hills thrown in that I enjoy, couple of century sportives each year so about 3000-3500 miles a year. Generally if raining heavily then use mtb. Lbs recons doing the hubs on the 105s once a year would be fine.

Thanks

cycleclinic

A build with silver Sapim spokes would come in about (actually I think that is a very cheap price) that. There are other rims. The black Kinlin XC-279 23mm wide 28 mm deep

While a 32 spoke wheelset is fine you are not too heavy a 24F/28R with black Kinlin XC-279 rims on black Novatec A171/F172 hubs with silver or black sapim race spokes would be in the £250 ball park and be lighter.

For a low cost wheelset I always think Kinlin rims they are good rims too. The Novatec hubs being cartridge bearings won't need servicing as such just the bearings changed when they wear out. There is the Kinlin XR-270 as well for a even cheaper rim than the XC-279 but narrower. A build with these in 24F/28R spoke count, novatec hubs and silver Race spokes should come in at the low end of your budget.

The velocity A23 rim is another good choice for a 32 spoke build with 105 hubs. If you are willing to use the Novatec hubs the a 24F/28R build could be done or a 28F/32R build.

There is no need to have the same number of spokes on the front wheel as there are on the rear as front wheels and inherently more stable than rear wheels. the only time when you have the same spoke count of the front and rear is when you are using disc brakes, carrying a load on the front wheel or the rims/hub mean you have to.

For cheap 105 hub build there is also the Mavic Open Pro. If built with silver sapim race spokes you builder should be able to do a 32 spoke wheelset for about £220-£230 judging by his pricing.

robertsims

Thanks, really appreciate the help. I'm very happy with the rims but was planning on 28 spokes front and 32 rear. However 105 hubs don't go lower than 32. Are 105 hubs good or do you think something like novatwc would be better for similar cost? Thanks

buckles

IMO 105 hubs are better than Novatec hubs. They seem to be made of higher quality material and have a better finish.

The steel freehub body on 105 hubs doesn't get damaged by the cassette, unlike the aluminium one on the Novatec hubs.

Novatec hubs contain sealed cartridge bearings, which IMO are a load of sh*t in comparison BUT they can simply be ridden until they fall apart and simply replaced. So they're good for people who don't have time, or just can't be bothered to service hubs. As you say you're happy to service the 105 hubs yourself I would go with them if I were you. I'm sure they're actually cheaper than Novatec as well (mine were £44 for the pair from Ribble). With the Novatecs I got 2 race seasons out of the bearings (only rode in wet weather twice, probably about 60 rides in total), but they were already rough at the end of season 1 and really rough at the end of the 2nd season.. It's about £15-£20 for new bearings IIRC inc. freehub bearings which are a pain to change.

As for spokes, you're not going to benefit from having fewer spokes, so I wouldn't recommend choosing an inferior hub just to lose four spokes in the front wheel. You may only need 28 at the front but having an 'extra' four will not hold you back.

£250 seems alright to me but I'd probably want to pay slightly less than that bearing in mind an experienced wheel builder can build wheels much faster than me, but better than I can. Built a pair of Archetypes onto 105s myself with Alpina ACI spokes and brass washers for just under £170 including rim tape. It took me about 6 hours to build both wheels and I take forever to build wheels, I'd expect a good wheel builder to be able to do it in 4 hours. Maybe I'm a skinflint but that's £80 more than I paid to build them myself; assuming 4 hours to build both wheels £20 an hour to build wheels seems a bit steep to me.

cycleclinic

The novatec hubs are not a piece of crap. They are a different type of hub. Yes the freehub is alloy but lets not get too wound up about freehub body chew as it is not that bad for novatec hubs really I have seen allot of these hubs with shimano cassettes after several thousand miles and it is not a big problem . Cartridge bearing can be very durable and when they die put in there place INA, SKF or better still NTN bearings which are of a higher grade than the NBK that come in the hubs as standard. The bearing is n the novatec hubs are 6001 in the main body which means 1/4 balls just like a shimano 105 rear hub. I like 105 hubs, I like the Novatec and I like Miche hubs, they are all good in there own ways.

The novatec's and 105 hubs have the same trade price so they are the same retail price in shops. The trade from madsion for 105 hubs not far of £44 that you say ribble charge so please get real about pricing. Shops are not ribble and cannot buy 100 pair of hubs OEM or direct from shimano (there are tax implications for holding that much stock). 105 hubs are very good too but do not consider one to be superior to the other as it all depends how you define better.

Any wheelbuilder trying to put a roof over his or her head and actually eat has to charge more then £20/hour labour. Try finding a trades man for less this is not meant to be a spat so don't take it that way it is just the relaities of running a business.

If the OP want to build his own wheels then go ahead it will be cheaper (and a good thing to do)

the profit in a set of wheels comes from the rims, hubs, spokes and labour. The labour charge may only be in the £20-£40 range (typical for shops/wheelbuilders that do this for a living) per wheel because the profit in the rims, spokes and hubs accounts for the rest. The lights do not stay on and staff are not paid for free you know. I think you underestimate how expensive it is to run a bike shop really it is not a gold mine - I know this as this is what I do every day.

It is fine to be a skinflint we all have budgets to work too but trying and say a wheelbuilder should charge a price that would put them out of business is not fair.

hypster

Buckles wrote:

IMO 105 hubs are better than Novatec hubs. They seem to be made of higher quality material and have a better finish.

The steel freehub body on 105 hubs doesn't get damaged by the cassette, unlike the aluminium one on the Novatec hubs.

Novatec hubs contain sealed cartridge bearings, which IMO are a load of sh*t in comparison BUT they can simply be ridden until they fall apart and simply replaced. So they're good for people who don't have time, or just can't be bothered to service hubs. As you say you're happy to service the 105 hubs yourself I would go with them if I were you. I'm sure they're actually cheaper than Novatec as well (mine were £44 for the pair from Ribble). With the Novatecs I got 2 race seasons out of the bearings (only rode in wet weather twice, probably about 60 rides in total), but they were already rough at the end of season 1 and really rough at the end of the 2nd season.. It's about £15-£20 for new bearings IIRC inc. freehub bearings which are a pain to change.

As for spokes, you're not going to benefit from having fewer spokes, so I wouldn't recommend choosing an inferior hub just to lose four spokes in the front wheel. You may only need 28 at the front but having an 'extra' four will not hold you back.

£250 seems alright to me but I'd probably want to pay slightly less than that bearing in mind an experienced wheel builder can build wheels much faster than me, but better than I can. Built a pair of Archetypes onto 105s myself with Alpina ACI spokes and brass washers for just under £170 including rim tape. It took me about 6 hours to build both wheels and I take forever to build wheels, I'd expect a good wheel builder to be able to do it in 4 hours. Maybe I'm a skinflint but that's £80 more than I paid to build them myself; assuming 4 hours to build both wheels £20 an hour to build wheels seems a bit steep to me.

Buckles,

What Novatec hubs are you referring to? I know the Superlight ones have smaller bearings than the A171/F172 combo for instance and are not recommended for prolonged wet weather use.

I have just built up some Shimano 105 hubs with Mavic Open Pros and am really impressed with how smooth they feel. I agree on the spoke count as well, I usually come to the conclusion it's not worth trading reliability for a 20g saving on each wheel which will mean nothing on the road.

I'm not sure with your POV on £20/hour for professional wheel builders though. They have overheads like any business and I'm sure not many of them would be around for long working at that rate. Also, some of them come on forums like this and dispense a lot of help and knowledge for free. You could argue that it is a way of drumming up trade but more power to them I say. They have helped me on more than one occasion and I wouldn't begrudge them a decent living.

robertsims

Thanks to you both for the advice. Think hubs come down to cartridge vs cup and cone to be honest and that is just personal preference. If charge £20ph then no issues with that at all to be honest for skilled work. Most tasks and servicing I do myself and buy parts online but repairs or skilled work I use the lbs (actually not that local) but always find there work top notch.
Thanks for putting mind at rest purchase for the new yr I think!

cycleclinic

It is personal preference about the hub type. Glad you have that sorted.

buckles

You should probably disregard anything I have typed after 8pm today due to fairly strong cider consumption

Maybe £44 for 105 hubs is unrealistic, they are supposed to be about £70, no idea how much wheel builders pay for them.

Only reason £20 an hour for wheelbuilding seems steep to me is because it's something I can do myself* for free, so obviously I'm going to have a very biased opinion. I wouldn't think twice about paying an electrician, plumber or car mechanic £20 or whatever they charge per hour simply because I haven't learnt to do those things myself. So maybe I was being a bit unfair.

However I stand by my perception of the quality of the hubs... Although I was more than happy with the Novatec hubs when I was using them, they did feel like they were of lower quality than the 105 hubs. I know that's totally subjective though, so, whatever. But the chewed freehub was not subjective, while not a disaster it would have been better to just have a steel one to avoid the hassle of removing a stuck cassette. Also would be good if they came with decent bearings to begin with..

*although I don't find it difficult I don't enjoy it, would hate to have to do it more than once every couple of years and would rather pay someone else to do it.

hypster

Buckles,

Good luck on getting an electrician, plumber or car mechanic to work for £20 per hour!! If you ever do have to call one out and find out what they actually charge then you might think about taking up one of those trades rather than wasting time building wheels.

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out.

RobertSims,

You could do worse than check out the Cycle Clinic website. There are several sets of wheels within your budget that meet your requirements. Even if you don't go for a set at least it will give you and idea of what you can get for your money from a hand-built professional.

buckles

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

rolf_f

Buckles wrote:

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

No, they are only just under £44 to people whose maths isn't very good!

ugo.santalucia

Buckles wrote:

I'd expect a good wheel builder to be able to do it in 4 hours. Maybe I'm a skinflint but that's £80 more than I paid to build them myself; assuming 4 hours to build both wheels £20 an hour to build wheels seems a bit steep to me.

Less than two hours actually, if you only consider building... if you consider that one has to do other duties, like ordering parts, keeping accountancy, spending time updating a site etc. etc.. then let's say 3 hours per set. Typical rate is 40-60 pounds for a set of two wheels, so 15-20 £ per hour... is it a lot? Your average Ernst & Young consultant who knows fxckall about what he is talking about probably charges £ 300 pounds per hour. An Audi garage will charge you £ 120 per hour and an LBS will charge £ 30-40 per hour, some even more... in the good days some estate agents, who are not exactly brain surgeons or barristers, would probably earn close to £ 100 per hour as an average... even a bike fitter charges around £ 30 per hour... not sure why a wheel builder should charge minimum wage... c'mon, be real!

buckles

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

No, they are only just under £44 to people whose maths isn't very good!

Do you want me to scan and upload my Ribble receipt that shows how much I paid?

buckles

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Buckles wrote:

I'd expect a good wheel builder to be able to do it in 4 hours. Maybe I'm a skinflint but that's £80 more than I paid to build them myself; assuming 4 hours to build both wheels £20 an hour to build wheels seems a bit steep to me.

Less than two hours actually, if you only consider building... if you consider that one has to do other duties, like ordering parts, keeping accountancy, spending time updating a site etc. etc.. then let's say 3 hours per set. Typical rate is 40-60 pounds for a set of two wheels, so 15-20 £ per hour... is it a lot? Your average Ernst & Young consultant who knows fxckall about what he is talking about probably charges £ 300 pounds per hour. An Audi garage will charge you £ 120 per hour and an LBS will charge £ 30-40 per hour, some even more... in the good days some estate agents, who are not exactly brain surgeons or barristers, would probably earn close to £ 100 per hour as an average... even a bike fitter charges around £ 30 per hour... not sure why a wheel builder should charge minimum wage... c'mon, be real!

Yeah fair enough, but as I said afterwards, it only seems steep to me because I can do it myself for free (and I'm a tightwad). Whatever you guys realistically have to charge is what you have to charge, I'm actually happy to pay the money and have done numerous times.

rolf_f

Buckles wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

No, they are only just under £44 to people whose maths isn't very good!

Do you want me to scan and upload my Ribble receipt that shows how much I paid?

Errrr, hardly. I was just pointing out that 10% off £48 is not just under £44. If it was, then Ribble have pulled a fast one on you

ugo.santalucia

Buckles wrote:

Yeah fair enough, but as I said afterwards, it only seems steep to me because I can do it myself for free (and I'm a tightwad). Whatever you guys realistically have to charge is what you have to charge, I'm actually happy to pay the money and have done numerous times.

At least it's not illegal to build your own wheels... like it is to fiddle with your boiler, or change the oil in your car...
There is very little profiteering in the industry and even those who charge a lot more than the average, like Strada, don't drive around in a Porsche like your average 25 year old estate agent

buckles

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

No, they are only just under £44 to people whose maths isn't very good!

Do you want me to scan and upload my Ribble receipt that shows how much I paid?

Errrr, hardly. I was just pointing out that 10% off £48 is not just under £44. If it was, then Ribble have pulled a fast one on you

FINE - JUST OVER £43 THEN!!!! :-d

rolf_f

Buckles wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckles wrote:

hypster wrote:

Shimano 105 hubs are £48 a pair at Ribble so you're not that far out. .

No, they are just under £44.

They are only £48 to people who failed to spot the 10% off discount code

No, they are only just under £44 to people whose maths isn't very good!

Do you want me to scan and upload my Ribble receipt that shows how much I paid?

Errrr, hardly. I was just pointing out that 10% off £48 is not just under £44. If it was, then Ribble have pulled a fast one on you

FINE - JUST OVER £43 THEN!!!! :-d

Well done - but you really need to keep an eye on your blood pressure

cycleclinic

It's not illegal to change the oil in your car, I have done it several times you just need to dipose of the oil properly dumping it is against the law. If I had the time I would be still servicing my car and doing all repairs (I have done it all before), as I do as good a job as a garage does. Which relates to Buckles post, his wheels may be as good as the one's a wheel builder would build but if you do not have the time spare you have to pay some one. There are lots of things I could do myself but as I do not have the time (book keeping for example, annual acounts, servicing my car) I have to pay some one.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's not illegal to change the oil in your car, I have done it several times you just need to dipose of the oil properly dumping it is against the law. If I had the time I would be still servicing my car and doing all repairs (I have done it all before), as I do as good a job as a garage does. Which relates to Buckles post, his wheels may be as good as the one's a wheel builder would build but if you do not have the time spare you have to pay some one. There are lots of things I could do myself but as I do not have the time (book keeping for example, annual acounts, servicing my car) I have to pay some one.

You must have an old beater, modern cars need to be plugged and you need to tell them what you have done or they keep pestering you with warnings and eventually refuse to start altogether... plus modern cars don't even have a way to evacuate the oil without sucking it from the top... it's all changed from those days

cycleclinic

Depends on the car. Mine is a 25 year old (1989) BMW E34 with a ancient M30 engine. All the cars I have had over the last few year have been 80's BMW's (E28's mostly) for the very reason I can fix them. A 2000 KA 2 seater was easy enough to work on when my wife had it. But yes most cars in the last few years have become far too complex which is why I will not buy one -period. I do not care how fuel efficent they are if I can't work on them I do not want them.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Depends on the car. Mine is a 25 year old (1989) BMW E34 with a ancient M30 engine. All the cars I have had over the last few year have been 80's BMW's (E28's mostly) for the very reason I can fix them. A 2000 KA 2 seater was easy enough to work on when my wife had it. But yes most cars in the last few years have become far too complex which is why I will not buy one -period. I do not care how fuel efficent they are if I can't work on them I do not want them.

I kind of figured out you were that type...

robertsims

Thanks agan to all for help, especially ugo and cycle clinic. Definitely going to go with the archetype rims on 105 hub. 32 spoke front and rear. Probably race on rear and laser spokes on front to save tiny bit weight. Just gotta decide what would look best on the red beast! Edging towards grey rims with silver spokes...sure will change my mind several times!