Dura Ace C24 - rim life help !

chris217

Ok, sorry not sure if this should in 'Road Buying advice' as well / instead ?
anyway trying to decide on wheels, had some of the previous 7850 C24 , great but rim wear seemed quite rapid and at over £200 to replace a rim, its put me off.

any owners of either old or 9000 C24 wheels got any long term ride / wear reviews as i do like them but concerned about rim life.

cheers

sloppyschleckonds

lol

racingcondor

One of the reasons light rims are light is that they use less metal. That includes the brake tracks. That said there are a lot of facotrs involved and some brake pads are supposedly worse for your rims than others (I just use the ones that work best for me).

Personally I'd get RS80's and accept that they're disposable (or spend your current budget and buy handbuilts).

Grill

As I posted before, they will wear at the same rate.

Go handbuilt if you want to avoid this sort of issue.

mfin

The braking track is 70% (?) the thickness of most isn't it? If this is true then that doesn't mean they will last 70% as long though, it will be less, as a braking track doesn't wear all the way down to 0% before a rim is shot.

It's not rocket surgery, and the braking track on them is made of aluminium not magic.

If you want something that lasts longer in respect of the braking track there are plenty of options, although some people can make a pair last years and years in clean conditions, depends where you live and how much braking you do. Someone in the Alps could get through them a hundred times quicker than someone in rural Norfolk.

cycleclinic

If you want a cheap light weight rim that when it wear out will cost 1/5th of the DA rim then look at the Kinlin XR-200. You will need a higher spoke count. The kinlin rim is rebadged as IRD rim I think (cadance) you will also need a 28 spoke rear at the back unless you 50kg or so. Just some info if you want to enquire with various builders.

The handbuilt option will be a lot cheaper but if you do that I would be wary pairing them with DT Swiss 240's CK hubs e.t.c as the bracing angles given by the rear hubs on these are not high and lateral wheel stiffness will suffer. The only hubs I have found that work really well with these rims are DA 9000, Miche Primato, Novatec A171/F172 and Noavtec A291/F482. All give good bracing angles but the DA 9000 is actually the worst of that list. there will be other hubs that work it just I have not used them to know.

Use soft brake pads should be used with any light weight rim.
Remember these C24 wheels are race wheels not training wheels but people buy them for regular use and sportives not racing! Personally I think they are for serious racers with team backing. Also using them in dryish weather is a good idea. My kinlins only where see dry roads and I have hardly any rim wear after 3000 miles. I also ride in East Anglia hardly hilly.

northpole

I have the older 7800 version of DA wheels and have used them since 2007 for my daily commute and for all other riding between 2007-2010. Not sure if Shimano made them leaner between generations however, I'd lose no sleep over concerns about rim wear unless you live in a particularly hilly area and go out regularly in foul weather. Look after them, use Swissstop Green pads and I reckon you'll be fine.

Peter

chris217

cheers all, think C24, however dare i mention the dreaded Ksyrium , more durable ??

mfin

Ksyriums Elite's hub flange design is a bit lacking, and the nips can seize (as can others), they used to make great hubs. For factory builts, out of the big makes, Campag and Fulcrum equivalent stuff is worth a look. All these wheels use something or other that's proprietary, and of course there will always be people having problems with any of the makes. Take your pick.

porker33

I use swiss stop black pads on mine, no real noticeable wear after 2 years of use, just use a soft "sacrificial" pad,,,far cheaper than replacing rims!

Bobbinogs

You could always go for the RS81, same rim but Ultegra hub instead of DuraAce. They will last the same amount of time but for a chunk of cash less.

Grill

I love these sort of threads. OP asks about wheel life and is worried/annoyed about cost of replacing. Advice is given to go handbuilt (the answer to all of OP's prayers) yet everybody ignores it and keeps recommending factory wheels. This is what going mad must feel like...

Bobbinogs

On the other hand though Grill, many wheel threads start with "should I buy Krysium or RS80" and end with a big debate on which handbuilts are the right answer

I agree that handbuilts would be a sensible choice for an excellent all year wheel with good repairability...but if someone wants a good factory option and accepts the repairability issue, then that is their choice. FWIW, my RS80s have done 3 long seasons (through 2 rubbish summers and 1 nice one), they will do one more. So that will be about 10,000+ miles all in. I don't ride them in the winter though, can't afford to

mfin

Yes Grill, there has been suggestion of handbuilts, but then the OP obviously still has interest in Factory builts as he mentions them again, so people aren't aren't ignoring anything, it's not compulsive behaviour at all, not like buying 3 Scotts.

ugo.santalucia

Bobbinogs wrote:

I agree that handbuilts would be a sensible choice for an excellent all year wheel with good repairability...but if someone wants a good factory option and accepts the repairability issue, then that is their choice.

They accept them in principle, then they forget about them and keep bothering you with a plan to rebuild them involving a set of rims in 16/20 count they have seen from a USA retailer and some spokes that you are supposed to supply, that come in boxes of 100 at a cost of 150 pounds per box, to use 36 of them distributed between 3 lengths... 72 e-mails after they realise that they have to re-decorate the bedroom and have no money to spend on wheels, hence they buy a set of Shimano RS 30 on offer at 99 pounds... been there ....

pkripper

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

I agree that handbuilts would be a sensible choice for an excellent all year wheel with good repairability...but if someone wants a good factory option and accepts the repairability issue, then that is their choice.

They accept them in principle, then they forget about them and keep bothering you with a plan to rebuild them involving a set of rims in 16/20 count they have seen from a USA retailer and some spokes that you are supposed to supply, that come in boxes of 100 at a cost of 150 pounds per box, to use 36 of them distributed between 3 lengths... 72 e-mails after they realise that they have to re-decorate the bedroom and have no money to spend on wheels, hence they buy a set of Shimano RS 30 on offer at 99 pounds... been there ....

That sentiment I can wholly sympathise with - being an occasional seller on the classifieds is hugely depressing at times for similar reasons...

I accept factory wheels as a disposable option, but do also use sacrificial brake pads to maximise their life - I'm still running a set of original crossmax (from I think 1996) on one of my bikes, and they're fine! But, I don't think I'd ever bother with a factory rebuild if the rim was trashed, spoke replacement is fine, but rim replacement is goodbye wheel for some of the lightweight / minimal spoke wheels.

Just as an aside, and ugo, you may have an insight into this - my crossmax's, and my bontrager racelites (also similar vintage with king hubs) are ceramic coated - any ideas why it's no longer an option - braking and durability was great, sure at a cost premium, but have we gone down a more disposable route as people balk at the initial cost premium, or are long term margins not there because of longer lifespans?

Grill

mfin wrote:

Yes Grill, there has been suggestion of handbuilts, but then the OP obviously still has interest in Factory builts as he mentions them again, so people aren't aren't ignoring anything, it's not compulsive behaviour at all, not like buying 3 Scotts.

Don't forget about the 2 other Scott's I sold this year. :P

ugo.santalucia

pkripper wrote:

Just as an aside, and ugo, you may have an insight into this - my crossmax's, and my bontrager racelites (also similar vintage with king hubs) are ceramic coated - any ideas why it's no longer an option - braking and durability was great, sure at a cost premium, but have we gone down a more disposable route as people balk at the initial cost premium, or are long term margins not there because of longer lifespans?

I don't know why they have given up making ceramic coated rims (exalith aside)... I have the feeling it is a very expensive process and at the price point people are prepared to pay, there was no money to be made, probably..

Which might be a mis-judgement, as I was prepared to flog 250 pounds for a set of HED C2 Belgium in essence because of the etched Belgian flag...

cycleclinic

The fact no one does ceramic rims anymore indicates there must be a good commerical reason not too. I suspect the reason is they were propular on MTB rims due to nasty conditions they were used in but since MTB moved over to disc brakes there is no demand anymore and there insufficent commercial basis to make ceramic coated road rims as they were never that popular on road bikes.

overlord2

Use soft brake blocks. The swisstop blacks. Virtually no wear but they dont last as long as other pads which is to be expected.

sancho_panza

I've never quite understood this "wear in the mountains business" about rims and brake pads.

mfin wrote:

Someone in the Alps could get through them a hundred times quicker than someone in rural Norfolk.

I wore out a pair of Cosmic SLs recently: nearly 30,000km of riding, most of that in the alps or similar (Swiss Jura) - when the rear wheel went I was still on the original pads (yes, the same pads with 30,000km in them). And those pads have still got life in them. The brake track on the rim is still in good nick - the rim ended up splitting along spoke eyelets down the middle (I think precipitated by a big impact some months previously).

So braking is not always a significant factor in rim wear.

Grill

Sancho Panza wrote:

So braking is not always a significant factor in rim wear.

So what other factors are there in rim wear? Please, do tell... :roll:

chris217

thanks for all the replies, and advice, was helpful.

i note comments re handbuilts and actually as well as my intended Factory built set i also intend to run a set of handbuilts

they will potentially be H Plus archetypes and I may use my existing DT Swiss hubs ( from a set of Mon Chasseral the rims of which are slightly concave now and small cracks appearing between spokes )

i actually like the Mon Chasserals but need something stiffer as using them with Ritchey logic which has a bit of flex, i will run the handbuilts for commuting and bad weather riding.

just wondered whether the Dura Ace 9000 were particulary vulnerable for rapid rim wear IN COMPARISON with other factory built wheels.

finally to really throw cat amongst pigeons thinking about Ksyrium SLS for the factory build option !!! cheers again

robbo2011

The SLS are very good climbing wheels. I think they would be stiffer but slightly less comfortable than the C24s. The rims on mine are lasting very well, no perceptible wear at all with SwissStop blacks after 3000km of mountain riding, but it's still to early to assess. As is durability, although Ksyriums do have a good reputation in this respect.

sancho_panza

Grill wrote:

Sancho Panza wrote:

So braking is not always a significant factor in rim wear.

So what other factors are there in rim wear? Please, do tell... :roll:

Fatigue, stress and impact. (Let's call it factors affecting rim life then).

ugo.santalucia

Chris217 wrote:

they will potentially be H Plus archetypes and I may use my existing DT Swiss hubs ( from a set of Mon Chasseral the rims of which are slightly concave now and small cracks appearing between spokes )

Indeed, that's what happened to DT 415 rims... seen it many times before, that's why I don't use them. Check the flanges too, I have seen DT cracked flanges as well

Grill

Sancho Panza wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sancho Panza wrote:

So braking is not always a significant factor in rim wear.

So what other factors are there in rim wear? Please, do tell... :roll:

Fatigue, stress and impact. (Let's call it factors affecting rim life then).

So you're saying that fatigue, stress and impact from just riding around have more impact on rim wear than braking? Because that is what you're insinuating by saying that braking isn't a significant factor for wear.

My Mavics barely got 9k put of the rims, and that was from braking. The fact of the matter is that the rims are machined to mm's of their life on the c24 and they wear very quickly. The OP's post is neither anecdotal nor is it isolated.

Bluegnu

The braking tracks on C24's are normal thickness, it's the inside of the rim - the spoke bed - that's milled thinner and the carbon laminate is bonded on.

FWIW, my 7850 C24's are currently in their (if I remember correctly) 4th winter and still going strong. Sure there is wear but looking at the wear indicators I reckon I'll get another year out of them. I think they're great wheels and I wouldn't hesitate on buying them again

rolf_f

Grill wrote:

Sancho Panza wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sancho Panza wrote:

So braking is not always a significant factor in rim wear.

So what other factors are there in rim wear? Please, do tell... :roll:

Fatigue, stress and impact. (Let's call it factors affecting rim life then).

So you're saying that fatigue, stress and impact from just riding around have more impact on rim wear than braking? Because that is what you're insinuating by saying that braking isn't a significant factor for wear.

My Mavics barely got 9k put of the rims, and that was from braking. The fact of the matter is that the rims are machined to mm's of their life on the c24 and they wear very quickly. The OP's post is neither anecdotal nor is it isolated.

I'd want to know what the weather conditions were. I reckon virtually all rim wear is down to wet days and the wet and dry papering effect that the pads apply to the rims in those conditions. You could probably get any rim to last til it fatigued if you never went out in the rain.

Grill

Do you know of anywhere in the UK that doesn't suffer from inclement weather? Of course I rode in the wet. I've never heard of an Audax being rescheduled due to rain...

buckles

Grill wrote:

Do you know of anywhere in the UK that doesn't suffer from inclement weather? Of course I rode in the wet. I've never heard of an Audax being rescheduled due to rain...

You mean you don't have a set of 'rain wheels'? FFS!