105 Hub dead or clinging on?

wishitwasallflat

I try to remember to service my 105 Hubs every 1k (misstimed a couple and went to 1.5 and 1.2k) - normally whne I open them they just look like there's less grease than when packed but still ok. This time rear drive side had brown sludge (clean grease is green) in it and both the cone and race look awful to me:







The non-drive side looked better but has two clear tracks on cone:



The rims on these are Open Pros and are measuring just over 1mm thickness so I was just getting ready to cost a new rim and re-build (wheels were built by Harry Rowland 4200m dirty and all weather miles ago so I don't reckon they owe me anything). I've cleaned and re-packed the hubs and they do run pretty smooth (not exactly butter but smooth!). Could wise more experienced heads give opinions on few questions please:

1) Are these hubs dead or is there life left in them?

2) If there is still life would there be any point in paying for fitting a new rim, or should I go for new wheel?

3) From searching around 4.2k dirty all weather miles, for a heavy rider like me seems reasonable for the rims but is this not a bit short for 105 hubs? Do you think I maybe left them too loose after last service (I really don't think they could have been too tight as there was definetly no binding or grinding)?

As always any opinions gratefully received.

wishitwasallflat

Hope it's not rude to ask but 46 views and no opinions?

Is it maybe because the answer is so bl88&ing obvious that these are toast that it doesn't merit an answer? If so I apologise it's just that I have only ever opened up these hubs so have no experience of how hubs look as they age and deteriorate and wasn't sure ...

majormantra

Your pics aren't showing, but if a hub feels ok, it is ok. And even when a hub starts to die (i.e. the cups/cones are pitted) they remain usable for quite a while. It's a matter of preference as to whether you replace the hubs, but I probably wouldn't.

Shimano cones can of course be replaced although you may not deem it worth the money. You could also replace the balls to maximise lifespan but if you do, get decent quality ones (grade 25 or better) as the cheap ones in most bike shops are pretty rubbish.

wishitwasallflat

MajorMantra wrote:

Your pics aren't showing, but if a hub feels ok, it is ok. And even when a hub starts to die (i.e. the cups/cones are pitted) they remain usable for quite a while. It's a matter of preference as to whether you replace the hubs, but I probably wouldn't.

Shimano cones can of course be replaced although you may not deem it worth the money. You could also replace the balls to maximise lifespan but if you do, get decent quality ones (grade 25 or better) as the cheap ones in most bike shops are pretty rubbish.

Thank you I will try to post the pics in a different format - they showed ok on my pc.

wishitwasallflat

Visible now??

ugo.santalucia

If they don't feel rough, then all is good. As a precautionary measure you can replace the balls... measure them and order the same size from simply bearings, just buy the lowest number (highest grade) you can afford... 10 or so being ideal, 100 being good enough... either Chrome steel or stainless. Clean the cones and maybe give them a wipe with some polishing cloth... if they are not cracked, that's enough. Clean the races in the same way and reassemble.
When Open PRO are worn they do look concave, if they are concave, they've had it.

edhornby

I've squeezed life out of hubs in a worse state than that but I am tight.. as the other posters have said, fresh ballbearing would help, if any of them have what looks like a very gentle crazy paving on them, they are toast

keef66

+ whatever. Just clean them up and stick some fresh grease and new bearings in there. New cones if you're feeling extravagant. The Shimano ball bearings are only a couple of quid on-line (I'm about to do my RS10's) but you can probably get better / cheaper elsewhere.

When it comes to adjustment as I'm sure you're aware, slightly too loose is better than too tight.

wishitwasallflat

Thanks a million to all - hubs are ok and feel pretty much all right - I have repacked them with fresh grease and new BBs. Rear rim is feeling a bit concave though; still measures just plus 1mm but it's time for a new set and keep these as turbo/spares I think.

Thanks again to all.

ugo.santalucia

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Thanks a million to all - hubs are ok and feel pretty much all right - I have repacked them with fresh grease and new BBs. Rear rim is feeling a bit concave though; still measures just plus 1mm but it's time for a new set and keep these as turbo/spares I think.

Thanks again to all.

Big deal, replace the rim

cycleclinic

To me given grade 10 balls are so cheap (buy a bag of 200 from your local bearing factor that's bearings 10 services) and every time you service replace the balls. When I buy them in bags of 500 they cost me 4p each, they will cost you more for a lower quantity but not much more. Why go through the trouble of opening the hubs cleaning and reusing the old balls which will have some wear. If the cone show any wear change them. changing the balsl often will keep the cones fresh and the first signs of wear I would bin them as doing this preserves the cups which are not spares you can buy.

I would probably leave the service for longer than 1000 miles.

wishitwasallflat

Thanks cycleclinic - every time I have serviced these I have always fitted new balls using the genuine Shimano ones for these specific hubs from SJScycles. I did look on bearing sites and am ok with choosing the grades but they come in different materials and I read somewhere that the ball steel should always be softer than the cup and the cone as they are essentially sacrificial parts and I have no idea how resilient the cups and cones are.

I was really surprised this time because this is the first time there's ever been any sign of wear and it looks very bad to have happened all at once. That said this is the first time one of them has been full of brown sludge though! The cups now look just as worn as the cones so I reckon it may not be worth the expense of replacing the cones. Still mulling over whether or not to re-rim these as I don't have a spare so if I send them to Harry R I am off the road until they get back. My missus has ok'ed buying a new set so if I did that I could send these to be re-rimmed once I have those.

I wonder if I am in the unique position of having a wife who sanctions these things so willingly and is so supportive of my cycling habit it makes me feel guilty to buy just in case I am taking advantage!

kiwimatt

I gave up on the whole spares thing with my 105 hub (apart from replacing the balls) - cones were about £12 I think for the rear and a new freehub which was on the way out was £30 (found it for £26 now) - whole new hub - £34. Nuts but there it is...

majormantra

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Thanks cycleclinic - every time I have serviced these I have always fitted new balls using the genuine Shimano ones for these specific hubs from SJScycles. I did look on bearing sites and am ok with choosing the grades but they come in different materials and I read somewhere that the ball steel should always be softer than the cup and the cone as they are essentially sacrificial parts and I have no idea how resilient the cups and cones are.

Ball bearing grades are about dimensional tolerance rather than hardness. There's no downside to higher grade balls.

cycleclinic

Exactly but grade 10 as it work hardned more is a little harder but not by much to make a difference. Grade 10 balls are a fair bit rounder and 10 times as round as grade 100 (tolerance is 10 times smaller) and that means they wear at a slower rate. This is why all I keep are grade 10 balls. The brown sludge is down to water getting in. I am not sure that the Shimano grease is the best stuff to prevent water ingress. There are other greases and liberal use of the one I use, I think is better at keeping the water out.

wishitwasallflat

Sorry didn't explain myself well I know grade is about degrees of roundness/smoothness - it's the actual material they are made of e.g.

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Loose+ ... index.html

I make that six different categories types of steel and each then opens up another set! 316, 420, chrome, 440 which should one use?

buckles

Would be interested to see which of the above is recommended.

I service mine twice a year (approx every 5-6000 miles), they're ridden in all weather and they've never looked that bad inside. Could there be a problem with your bearing seals that's allowing water to get in?

ugo.santalucia

Typically in the high end products, SHimano use hardened balls, which means it is not a problem, but the cones need to be machined to perfection, which your are not any longer. Maybe the "softer" steel is the better option in your case, but it's hard to say. I would probably get the chrome balls

cycleclinic

chrome balls are best I think grade 10 chrome. 316 is a stainless grade in fact a very high chromium stainless used in medical implants like hip replacements so these are the best for corrsoion resistance. Chrome ball are not corosion resistant but neither is the steel that makes up your cones or cups for this reason alone stainless balla are pointless.

You just need to pack out the bearing with a good water repelant grease. I am not sure if all greases are equal in this regard but I have never had trouble with Rock n Roll super web grease, seems to keep the water out.

Buckles comment about the seals is valid your service intervals are very short.

wishitwasallflat

Brilliant guys thank you very much

wishitwasallflat

Buckles wrote:

Would be interested to see which of the above is recommended.

I service mine twice a year (approx every 5-6000 miles), they're ridden in all weather and they've never looked that bad inside. Could there be a problem with your bearing seals that's allowing water to get in?

I have always tried to clean them with the seals in place - I use cotton buds so I can wipe round inside the race with seal in place and spray in WD40 wiping it out and then leaving it to dry once clean inside before greasing. It occurs to me last time I cleaned them one of the seals popped out so I bet that's why water got in this time but never before. I've always used Park Poly lube 1000 cause I had it around anyway but will try Rock and Roll.

Edit. Mmm ... Thinking about it leaving the seal in place and wiping around the inside with a cotton bud means the stick of the bud rubs round the rubber bit of the seal that sits against the cone as I wipe out the race. Gently prising the seal out, cleaning and then refitting might actually be the better option as that would seem that would to stress the outer edge of the seal that sits against the hub. Maybe thats a better option as it could be easier on the rubber inner bit. What do you do buckles? If you leave seal in place how do you clean inside the race? Would be good to know what's best in case I f£&@?)ed this up and do the same to the replacement wheels I am just about to push the buy button on in the next few days!

majormantra

My highly subjective impression is that the Park stuff is probably very low friction, but it's also a bit thin and easier to wash away than some of the more bog standard greases.

(IMHO etc.)

wishitwasallflat

Certainly feels thin compared to some greases but previous to this time though when I opened these hubs up there was always some still there. This time it was brown sledge. Makes me think the comments on seals being damaged as the cause of this sudden decline might be on the mark Just ordered a tube of Rock ands Roll web anyway though.

Moonbiker

Same rear wheel hub & rim as have.

Need to buy some more 1/4 ball bearings.

freddiegrubb

Good thread, some good info.

cycleclinic

Moon bike make sure you grade 10 chrome then. Most shop will sell 1/4" balls but if they can't tell you the grade walk away. Weldite balls for example are grade 300 or is 1000.