Campag RD - poor shifting

mattbell

I'm having some real issues trying to sort out the shifting on my Campag centaur RD (10 speed) - It's relatively old (I've got the old style shifters).

I can get most of the cassette to shift nicely then there will be one cog it will just skip up - no matter what i adjust this always happens. I then consequently have issues with down shifting. I've tried decreasing the cable tension and eventually I get to a point when I can't shift out of the smallest cog.

What I've tried so far is:
Derailleur hanger alignment.
Chain length.
Clean new campag cables.
Inc the length of the RD cable housing.
Endless fiddling with the RD indexing.

Am I missing something? Is this an ergo lever problem - it seems to all work fine. Is the RD worn out - are one of the tensioning springs worn out?

Any other ideas? I will give in and go to my LBS but not convinced they'll work it out.

edten

if you are getting the indexing correct, it could be the shifter. May need an overhaul, re-lube etc. Could also be a bent mech hanger.

mattbell

edten wrote:

if you are getting the indexing correct, it could be the shifter. May need an overhaul, re-lube etc. Could also be a bent mech hanger.

Any advice on the ergo lever service?

cycleclinic

If there is play in the mech linkages that can cause misshifting issues. Had to bin a few MTB mechs recently guilty of this fault.

gfk_velo

Hi Matt

If the shift consistently misses one sprocket, that may be indicative of any of the below:

Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
Damage to the lever.
Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.

To take them in order:
Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
The gear cable should run straight across the back of the pinch bolt as you look at it from the right hand (gear) side of the bike. It should not be wrapped around the pinch bolt and it should be held between the flat tab of the washer under the pinch bolt and the RD body - the tab at 90 degrees is not used to trap the cable, it's used to stop the washer turning as you tighten the pinch bolt.
Normally this will just give you ropey shifting and a missing sprocket as the movement of gear to cable recovery in the lever relationship is changed if the cable is the wrong side of the pinch bolt or incorrectly pinched. However, it's just possible, given all the variables including the "floating" top jockey wheel and a bit of wear and tear, to get acceptable shifting to somewhere around the middle of the cassette, then a sprocket missed, then acceptable shifting across the rest of the cassette. You have to try quite hard, but it can be done :-)

Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
This should be set before you attach the cable under the pinch bolt - if you don't, you can never be sure whether the limit screw is stopping the RD towards the outside, or if it is being held by the cable - if the latter, it pre-tensions the cable and occasionally that causes over-shift further down (towards the wheel) the cassette. Normally, though, it just results in naff shifting.

Damage to the lever.
Won't normally mean that a sprocket is missed entirely - depending on the lever version, normally it just gives vague shifting or a generally poor shift (full ErgoPower) or you will have all the sprockets going down the gears from top, from (say) the 12 to (say) the 25, but it will skip one or more coming back up (Escape-type and PowerShift). If you are in doubt about the model of lever, post a pic and we can advise which you have and a simple test for lever malfunction.
We can service the lever if needs be. PM me if you think you need to do this.

Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
Dealing with these two together as they have the same nett effect ... the hanger needs to be straight so that with a hanger alignment tool, if the gap between the indicator at the top of the rim is greater than 6mm different compared to the gap at either the 9 o'clock position or the 6 o'clock position, you need to either straighten the hanger (be VERY careful about doing this on a serial basis as micro-cracks can and do form & hangers can and do fail as a result - usually expensive) or you might consider fitting a CNC'd hanger from Wheels Manufacturing or BETD ... you still need to check alignment though as the "bed" that the hanger sits on / in may not be perfectly parallel to the plane of the cassette.
Before checking / straightening the hanger, make 100% sure that the fixing bolt(s) that hold it against the frame are fully tight. Even with the rear QR holding it down, it's not unknown for hangers to shift slightly - and that can lead to less-than-perfect shifting - rare though.

RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
There is a small amount of play at this point in most RDs - in Campag RDs it is set with two rubber o-rings and repeated soakings in oils, degreasers etc can cause the o-rings to loose their shape and resilience and the RD will develop progressively greater play. If you can move the body of the derailler side to side more than a mm or two, the o-rings may need replacing (occasionally the RD is just completely tired and the other pivots in the parallelogram are toast - in that case, a new RD is the only fix).
If in doubt, you can send the RD to us and we will do a full check and advise the viability / costs of any renovation. PM me if you think you may need to do this.

Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
We get this occasionally with levers that have been rebuilt to a different spec and sold 2nd hand - 10s ratchet in a 9s lever and vice versa are not uncommon. Also, 8, 9 or 10s levers from the second generation of ErgoPower won't work correctly with pre-1999 RDs - the geometry doesn't match the cable recovery. The difference on the RD is that the older ones have a "B" screw like Shimano that acts on the back of the hanger, the newer ones have an "H" screw on jockey cage that acts on a ratchet on the lower pivot.

Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.
The lockring really does need to be done up to 42 nm or so - that's darn' tight. The spacers in the cassette are not all the same thickness so need to be right & in the right order for the ratios of cassette that you have - all Campag cassettes in 10 and 11s have some degree of differentiation in the spacings across their width. If the spacers are wrong / incorrectly arranged and / or the lockring isn't tight so the sprockets and spacers can move at all, generally you will just get a shoddy shift and a lot of noise ... but with other factors including wear and tear at play, I suppose you *might* get a sprocket "missing" at random - never seen it, but mechanically it *could* happen.

Hopefully that will be of some help ...

Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd
Campagnolo Main Service Centre UK
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk

mattbell

gfk_velo wrote:

Hi Matt

If the shift consistently misses one sprocket, that may be indicative of any of the below:

Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
Damage to the lever.
Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.

To take them in order:
Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
The gear cable should run straight across the back of the pinch bolt as you look at it from the right hand (gear) side of the bike. It should not be wrapped around the pinch bolt and it should be held between the flat tab of the washer under the pinch bolt and the RD body - the tab at 90 degrees is not used to trap the cable, it's used to stop the washer turning as you tighten the pinch bolt.
Normally this will just give you ropey shifting and a missing sprocket as the movement of gear to cable recovery in the lever relationship is changed if the cable is the wrong side of the pinch bolt or incorrectly pinched. However, it's just possible, given all the variables including the "floating" top jockey wheel and a bit of wear and tear, to get acceptable shifting to somewhere around the middle of the cassette, then a sprocket missed, then acceptable shifting across the rest of the cassette. You have to try quite hard, but it can be done :-)

Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
This should be set before you attach the cable under the pinch bolt - if you don't, you can never be sure whether the limit screw is stopping the RD towards the outside, or if it is being held by the cable - if the latter, it pre-tensions the cable and occasionally that causes over-shift further down (towards the wheel) the cassette. Normally, though, it just results in naff shifting.

Damage to the lever.
Won't normally mean that a sprocket is missed entirely - depending on the lever version, normally it just gives vague shifting or a generally poor shift (full ErgoPower) or you will have all the sprockets going down the gears from top, from (say) the 12 to (say) the 25, but it will skip one or more coming back up (Escape-type and PowerShift). If you are in doubt about the model of lever, post a pic and we can advise which you have and a simple test for lever malfunction.
We can service the lever if needs be. PM me if you think you need to do this.

Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
Dealing with these two together as they have the same nett effect ... the hanger needs to be straight so that with a hanger alignment tool, if the gap between the indicator at the top of the rim is greater than 6mm different compared to the gap at either the 9 o'clock position or the 6 o'clock position, you need to either straighten the hanger (be VERY careful about doing this on a serial basis as micro-cracks can and do form & hangers can and do fail as a result - usually expensive) or you might consider fitting a CNC'd hanger from Wheels Manufacturing or BETD ... you still need to check alignment though as the "bed" that the hanger sits on / in may not be perfectly parallel to the plane of the cassette.
Before checking / straightening the hanger, make 100% sure that the fixing bolt(s) that hold it against the frame are fully tight. Even with the rear QR holding it down, it's not unknown for hangers to shift slightly - and that can lead to less-than-perfect shifting - rare though.

RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
There is a small amount of play at this point in most RDs - in Campag RDs it is set with two rubber o-rings and repeated soakings in oils, degreasers etc can cause the o-rings to loose their shape and resilience and the RD will develop progressively greater play. If you can move the body of the derailler side to side more than a mm or two, the o-rings may need replacing (occasionally the RD is just completely tired and the other pivots in the parallelogram are toast - in that case, a new RD is the only fix).
If in doubt, you can send the RD to us and we will do a full check and advise the viability / costs of any renovation. PM me if you think you may need to do this.

Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
We get this occasionally with levers that have been rebuilt to a different spec and sold 2nd hand - 10s ratchet in a 9s lever and vice versa are not uncommon. Also, 8, 9 or 10s levers from the second generation of ErgoPower won't work correctly with pre-1999 RDs - the geometry doesn't match the cable recovery. The difference on the RD is that the older ones have a "B" screw like Shimano that acts on the back of the hanger, the newer ones have an "H" screw on jockey cage that acts on a ratchet on the lower pivot.

Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.
The lockring really does need to be done up to 42 nm or so - that's darn' tight. The spacers in the cassette are not all the same thickness so need to be right & in the right order for the ratios of cassette that you have - all Campag cassettes in 10 and 11s have some degree of differentiation in the spacings across their width. If the spacers are wrong / incorrectly arranged and / or the lockring isn't tight so the sprockets and spacers can move at all, generally you will just get a shoddy shift and a lot of noise ... but with other factors including wear and tear at play, I suppose you *might* get a sprocket "missing" at random - never seen it, but mechanically it *could* happen.

Hopefully that will be of some help ...

Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd
Campagnolo Main Service Centre UK
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk

Thanks for that. I'll have another look tomorrow and let you know how I get on.

mattbell

gfk_velo wrote:

Hi Matt

If the shift consistently misses one sprocket, that may be indicative of any of the below:

Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
Damage to the lever.
Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.

To take them in order:
Gear cable the wrong side of the pinch bolt on the RD.
The gear cable should run straight across the back of the pinch bolt as you look at it from the right hand (gear) side of the bike. It should not be wrapped around the pinch bolt and it should be held between the flat tab of the washer under the pinch bolt and the RD body - the tab at 90 degrees is not used to trap the cable, it's used to stop the washer turning as you tighten the pinch bolt.
Normally this will just give you ropey shifting and a missing sprocket as the movement of gear to cable recovery in the lever relationship is changed if the cable is the wrong side of the pinch bolt or incorrectly pinched. However, it's just possible, given all the variables including the "floating" top jockey wheel and a bit of wear and tear, to get acceptable shifting to somewhere around the middle of the cassette, then a sprocket missed, then acceptable shifting across the rest of the cassette. You have to try quite hard, but it can be done :-)

Incorrect setting of the "high" limit screw.
This should be set before you attach the cable under the pinch bolt - if you don't, you can never be sure whether the limit screw is stopping the RD towards the outside, or if it is being held by the cable - if the latter, it pre-tensions the cable and occasionally that causes over-shift further down (towards the wheel) the cassette. Normally, though, it just results in naff shifting.

Damage to the lever.
Won't normally mean that a sprocket is missed entirely - depending on the lever version, normally it just gives vague shifting or a generally poor shift (full ErgoPower) or you will have all the sprockets going down the gears from top, from (say) the 12 to (say) the 25, but it will skip one or more coming back up (Escape-type and PowerShift). If you are in doubt about the model of lever, post a pic and we can advise which you have and a simple test for lever malfunction.
We can service the lever if needs be. PM me if you think you need to do this.

Bent hanger (though I note you have checked this).
Hanger mobile on dropout.
Dealing with these two together as they have the same nett effect ... the hanger needs to be straight so that with a hanger alignment tool, if the gap between the indicator at the top of the rim is greater than 6mm different compared to the gap at either the 9 o'clock position or the 6 o'clock position, you need to either straighten the hanger (be VERY careful about doing this on a serial basis as micro-cracks can and do form & hangers can and do fail as a result - usually expensive) or you might consider fitting a CNC'd hanger from Wheels Manufacturing or BETD ... you still need to check alignment though as the "bed" that the hanger sits on / in may not be perfectly parallel to the plane of the cassette.
Before checking / straightening the hanger, make 100% sure that the fixing bolt(s) that hold it against the frame are fully tight. Even with the rear QR holding it down, it's not unknown for hangers to shift slightly - and that can lead to less-than-perfect shifting - rare though.

RD movement at B pivot excessive (though usually this just gives poor shifting, acts like a bent hanger).
There is a small amount of play at this point in most RDs - in Campag RDs it is set with two rubber o-rings and repeated soakings in oils, degreasers etc can cause the o-rings to loose their shape and resilience and the RD will develop progressively greater play. If you can move the body of the derailler side to side more than a mm or two, the o-rings may need replacing (occasionally the RD is just completely tired and the other pivots in the parallelogram are toast - in that case, a new RD is the only fix).
If in doubt, you can send the RD to us and we will do a full check and advise the viability / costs of any renovation. PM me if you think you may need to do this.

Incompatible RD and lever (not likely but possible).
We get this occasionally with levers that have been rebuilt to a different spec and sold 2nd hand - 10s ratchet in a 9s lever and vice versa are not uncommon. Also, 8, 9 or 10s levers from the second generation of ErgoPower won't work correctly with pre-1999 RDs - the geometry doesn't match the cable recovery. The difference on the RD is that the older ones have a "B" screw like Shimano that acts on the back of the hanger, the newer ones have an "H" screw on jockey cage that acts on a ratchet on the lower pivot.

Lockring loose or spacers in cassette in the wrong order.
The lockring really does need to be done up to 42 nm or so - that's darn' tight. The spacers in the cassette are not all the same thickness so need to be right & in the right order for the ratios of cassette that you have - all Campag cassettes in 10 and 11s have some degree of differentiation in the spacings across their width. If the spacers are wrong / incorrectly arranged and / or the lockring isn't tight so the sprockets and spacers can move at all, generally you will just get a shoddy shift and a lot of noise ... but with other factors including wear and tear at play, I suppose you *might* get a sprocket "missing" at random - never seen it, but mechanically it *could* happen.

Hopefully that will be of some help ...

Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd
Campagnolo Main Service Centre UK
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk

Graeme,

I think I've fixed it with your first point. I've rerouted the cable and reindexed and on the work stand it seems to have resolved the issue, road test on the way to work tomorrow. I can't believe such a subtle thing would have so much influence on the shifting. I've just seen the picture on the instructions - I can't believe I glanced over it!

Thanks

Matt

dabber

Graeme. A big thank you from me as well. I'd been experiencing a similar problem to Matt (fairly intermittently) since I replaced my Veloce shifters. Again, like Matt, I've now checked the cable routing anchoring onto the RD and whilst it wasn't totally wrong it wasn't correct. I've now changed that and all seems OK. I just need to wait for my wrist to recover now from my "off" at the weekend before I try it properly on the road. Cheers

Matt... sorry for any thread hijack.

bianchiblue

Like this, right?

lesfirth

Another thank you to Graeme. I had exactly the same problem . My cable was the wrong side of the clamp screw.

I can not believe the difference changing it has made.

Thanks again.