Archetype vs Kinlin XR-300

duckson

Looking at some of the wheel posts over the past number of months and these rims are obviously quite heavily featured for handbuilts.
I'm more concerned with rim weight, handling and comfort (and to some degree looks) so wondering how the 19mm wide XR-300 stacks up against the 23mm Archetype.
Has anyone any direct on the road comparisons between them?

I know there is the Velocity A23 as well but not struck on the triangular looks!

(Cycleclinic build is favourite at the moment with Miche hubs, Sapim Laser/Race and one of the above rims in 20/24 as i want to keep it as light as possible (as near to 1600g as possible to compare £ to off the shelf options) within a £300 budget, will be used during winter (although not alot during rain but roads may be damp) and i'm 70kg).

buckles

If you can wait 'til I've built my Archetype wheels I'll tell you... I suspect you won't notice a huge difference from the actual rim width despite the tyre being spread out slightly wider and the sidewalls being straighter on the wider rim... BUT from what I gather the wider rim allows for a slightly lower tyre pressure (10% according to some HED marketing blurb) which you will definitely notice.

I think archetypes are the same weight as the Kinlins, just wider and less deep. I have no idea how the Archetypes feel in crosswinds but on the Kinlins my front wheel was all over the place.

amaferanga

I doubt you'll notice much difference in comfort. Archetypes look a lot nicer though, even after the anodizing wears off the braking surface. I've had a few sets of Kinlin rims, but built my first Archetypes a few months ago and I don't think I'll use Kinlin rims again unless I want something cheap.

ugo.santalucia

they are both performing... Archetype are nicer, more robust and handle a bit better

cycleclinic

I built with both quite often. The archetype is wider so a wider tyre profile will result. The XR-300 is a bit lighter (15g or so) and stiffer I mean really stiff. Even 20F/24R builds are stiff with light spokes.

Both rims build well. The A23 is lighter and shallow but no were near as stiff as the above rims but it is not flexy either. I have found Kinlins to be quite robust.

Both have there place but I think the Kinlin's place in a 20F/24R build with light spokes for a semi aero build. The Archetype suits a higher spokes count 24/28 or 28/32 for nice looking wheels for that special bike.

Nairnster

Does putting a tyre on the wider rim result in a smaller overall wheel diameter than on a narrower rim with the same tyre?

I was considering new wheels after winter, and both these rims are contenders.

duckson

Thanks for the feedback all.
thecycleclinic, i was reading a post from a few months ago and you said "A 20H/24H archetype build with Miche hubs and Sapim Laser Race spoke/brass nipples would weigh 1680g. ", do you not recommend this really?

cycleclinic

I would suggest it for light riders but the problem with low spoke counts on the Archetypes they end up being a similar weight to the 24/28 spoke build, so what is the gain. I hardly ever build these.

The Kinlin version beacuse the rim is stiffer can use Laser all round and it is still and weighs in at 1630g with brass nipples. I sometime build the kinlins with the more flexible Sapim CX-ray spokes and these wheels are still very stiff. So unless the rider particularly want a wider rim I think the Kinlin makes more sense.

Tyre fitted to a wider rim will have a slightly lower profile but not enough to notice a change in your gearing. I think the lower profile is more noticable (visibly at least) on wider rims like the 25mm carbon I have. a 23 mm tyre (GP4000s) is now 26mm wide and looks like it has a lower profile. Have not measured the rolling diameter to confirm.

src1

thecycleclinic wrote:

I would suggest it for light riders but the problem with low spoke counts on the Archetypes they end up being a similar weight to the 24/28 spoke build, so what is the gain. I hardly ever build these.

The Kinlin version beacuse the rim is stiffer can use Laser all round and it is still and weighs in at 1630g with brass nipples. I sometime build the kinlins with the more flexible Sapim CX-ray spokes and these wheels are still very stiff. So unless the rider particularly want a wider rim I think the Kinlin makes more sense.

Do you think a 24h/28h build on Archetypes with cx-Ray all round is ok for a 64kg rider? I hope so, as that is what I've just ordered!

Thanks.

ugo.santalucia

SRC1 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

I would suggest it for light riders but the problem with low spoke counts on the Archetypes they end up being a similar weight to the 24/28 spoke build, so what is the gain. I hardly ever build these.

The Kinlin version beacuse the rim is stiffer can use Laser all round and it is still and weighs in at 1630g with brass nipples. I sometime build the kinlins with the more flexible Sapim CX-ray spokes and these wheels are still very stiff. So unless the rider particularly want a wider rim I think the Kinlin makes more sense.

Do you think a 24h/28h build on Archetypes with cx-Ray all round is ok for a 64kg rider? I hope so, as that is what I've just ordered!

Thanks.

Yes

src1

Thanks, TBH I chose CX-Ray to make the build a bit easier. I wanted to build a light set of wheels, the other option was Sapim Laser but I've heard they're a bit of a pain for spoke twist.

BTW - what tension should I be aiming for with this build?

ugo.santalucia

SRC1 wrote:

Thanks, TBH I chose CX-Ray to make the build a bit easier. I wanted to build a light set of wheels, the other option was Sapim Laser but I've heard they're a bit of a pain for spoke twist.

BTW - what tension should I be aiming for with this build?

You've chosen the Cx ray because you're a bit of a tart, maybe... ?

Same tension as any other wheel... for Archetype go for 1000-1100 N at the front and 1200-1300 at the rear DS and whatever results at the NDS (depends on the hub). You will struggle to measure any tension lower than 700 N with the CX ray, so the NDS will be a bit more guesswork.

I would build the Kinlin a bit more conservatively, as they are not as robust and cracks are not unheard of, so maybe only 1100-1200 at the Rear DS...

src1

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You've chosen the Cx ray because you're a bit of a tart, maybe... ?

Yes, I forgot to mention that, DA 9000 hubs, CX-Ray and Archetype rims should fulfil that requirement quite nicely

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Same tension as any other wheel... for Archetype go for 1000-1100 N at the front and 1200-1300 at the rear DS and whatever results at the NDS (depends on the hub). You will struggle to measure any tension lower than 700 N with the CX ray, so the NDS will be a bit more guesswork.

Thanks for the info.

cycleclinic

The sapim gauge will measure CX-rays down way below 700N. Lasers are not a pain for twist. People over worry about twist and think if they feel even a bit of windup the build is going to go horribly wrong. If you lub your nipples (that sounds rude I am still a 13 year old boy you decide) and or use alloy nipples then you may not even get any twist.

mechanism

For wide(r) rims there's also Pacenti SL23.

cycleclinic

More expensive yes they are lighter but from all counts for other builder not rim made to same standards as the archetype. If I was offering a £90 rim I would want it to be of the highest possible standard of finish and roundness. On the Archetype is so good the thought of saving 60g on pair rims for an extra £70 does not seem like a good deal especially when the Velocity A23 is the same width and the same weight and cost alot less. I know it is not as deep and therefore not as stiff but still I am struggling to find a place of the SL23 which is why I have not ordered any yet.

src1

thecycleclinic wrote:

The sapim gauge will measure CX-rays down way below 700N. Lasers are not a pain for twist. People over worry about twist and think if they feel even a bit of windup the build is going to go horribly wrong. If you lub your nipples (that sounds rude I am still a 13 year old boy you decide) and or use alloy nipples then you may not even get any twist.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the OP, I just wanted to say thanks to TheCycleClinic for their great service and getting out the rims and spokes so quickly.

The rear wheel is built now: Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 hubs, Sapim CX-Ray. Rear wheel weight is 867g (weighed without skewer), which I think is pretty competitive.

The Archetype was easy to build with and I've managed to end up with even tension and good lateral trueness - I think this is one the reasons this rim is so popular.

CX-Rays makes spotting spoke twist really easy and of course, you can use bladed spoke holder to prevent this. However, they were a very tight fit in the Dura-Ace hub.

ugo.santalucia

SRC1 wrote:

CX-Rays makes spotting spoke twist really easy and of course, you can use bladed spoke holder to prevent this. However, they were a very tight fit in the Dura-Ace hub.

Yep... they have incredibly narrow holes and any spoke is a bit of a battle to fit. Bit of oil and a bit of technique which you learn along the way do help

cycleclinic

Glad it all went well. DA hubs are not for machine building so the spoke holes are smaller. It helps spoke life too.