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Wheel compatibility - Shimano 11sp

ducksonduckson Posts: 961
edited December 2013 in Workshop
Looking to buy some 2nd hand but only 3 month old Campag Zondas but not 100% sure (and neither is the owner) if they are Shimano 11sp compatible.
There is currently a Shimano 10sp cassette fitted along with a spacer, would this mean that they are 11sp cassette compatible? I'm thinking yes but just want reassurance incase i buy as 10sp is useless to me.
Cheers, Stu

Posts

  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    Not necessarily. Shimano 10 speed cassettes (105 and above) use a 1mm spacer on a 10 speed freehub. If it's an 11 speed it would have 2 spacers normally, a 1mm and a 1.75 or 1.85mm.
  • ducksonduckson Posts: 961
    Thanks.
    http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/do ... 3_2013.pdf

    Section 5.3.1 says it is 11sp compatible and has an adapter with the wheels, says "adapter must be fitted along with any washer supplied with the 9sp/10sp sprocket pack" which stacks up with your post.
    Cheers, Stu
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    so to sum up. if the cassette fitted is Tiagra then s seems that it could be 11spd if it is 105 or above then it is 10spd.

    got it?
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • ducksonduckson Posts: 961
    Yes got it!
    It has a 105 cassette fitted, just need to know what spacers are fitted.... 1=10sp freehub, 2=11sp freehub.
    Cheers, Stu
  • tim wandtim wand Posts: 2,945
    I ve got some old WHR501 wheels , which have a 10 speed Tiagra cassette fitted with one 1 mm spacer.

    My new 11 speed 6800 Casette will not fit on this freehub, the stack height appears higher by at least 1 mm.

    I ve got the same rear wheel on my Turbo set up with a CS 6600 ( ultegra 10 speed cassette ) with two spacers fitted, again the 6800 , 11 speed wont fit on this either.

    Is this consistent with what Nick said? When I took the new Cassette ( 6800 11 speed) out of the box I dropped it but I m pretty sure I ve assembled it with the spacers (3) in the right places.

    I take it both of the whr501 hubs I have are M10 and I need ED11? Is that Right :?:
  • tim wandtim wand Posts: 2,945
    I ve found this from Zinn which is interesting, I ve also read the follow on article were he runs Campag 11 Hub on Cassette on Shimano 11 speed set up. Might go this way as I find the Campag 11 Speed wheelsets more interesting than the Shimano ones.


    Forcing 11-speed on 10-speed hubs
    from Zinn

    Dear Lennard,
    I’ve just ordered an Ultegra 6800 group to build up a new bike. The group I ordered does not include hubs, as I intended to use wheels I already have that use Ultegra 6700 hubs. But now I’m seeing information (or mis-information) that the 11-speed cassette that comes with the Ultegra 6800 group won’t work with the Ultegra 6700 hubs. So, what’s the real story here? If the 11-speed cassette won’t work on a “stock” 6700 hub, is there any workaround, like replacing the freehub?
    —Tom

    Dear Tom,
    Indeed, that information is correct. The Shimano (and SRAM) 11-speed freehub is wider than the 10-speed one, because the 11-speed Shimano (and SRAM) cogset stack height is taller than 10-speed. Even if you were to get the cassette lockring engaged by shoving those 11-speed cogs together as tightly as you could while you were screwing in the lockring, you wouldn’t get much thread engagement, and the first cog’s splines would not overlap the 10-speed freehub body’s splines. I’ve tried this; the lockring will thread in maybe one turn, but the first cog is not engaged; it will spin until the lockring binds it down as it turns it together with it. But if you were to apply a chain load, that cog would either just spin or it would continue to force the lockring to screw in more until the one or two threads holding it stripped, and then all of your cogs would come loose.

    And even if you were to feel comfortable with the thread and spline engagement you got, the face of your lockring would rub on the inner face of your dropout when you installed the wheel in your bike. Yes, you could throw a little washer in there between the end of the hub and the dropout, but you’d still have the problem of a disengaged first cog and a lockring only holding on by the hair of its chinny chin chin.

    The fix on some wheels is to get an 11-speed freehub body and a different set of axle end caps or spacers or a new 11-speed axle, but not all generations within a given brand are interchangeable. The fix is to interchange the freehub bodies and put more spacing on the axle’s drive end and less spacing on the axle’s non-drive end. Then you’d re-dish the wheel more to the drive side. I recently went through this with Zipp, and the re-dish amount was 1.85mm. Thing is, only 2012 and later Zipp wheels can be converted to 11-speed.

    However, there is a fix for those with wheels that are not convertible to Shimano 11-speed freehubs but that offer Campagnolo freehubs (as you might imagine, Shimano is not one of those). You can install a Campagnolo freehub body on your wheel and get a Campagnolo 11-speed cogset. It will shift fine with a Shimano or SRAM 11-speed system.

    And in case any of you were wondering, if you have a 10-speed Shimano or SRAM system and buy a wheelset now, you can still run 10-speed cogs on that wheel. To put a 10-speed cogset on an 11-speed freehub, you just put a spacer behind the largest cog. Many 11-speed wheels come with this spacer.

    And This

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/ ... ght_303199
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    tim wand wrote:
    I ve got some old WHR501 wheels , which have a 10 speed Tiagra cassette fitted with one 1 mm spacer.

    My new 11 speed 6800 Casette will not fit on this freehub, the stack height appears higher by at least 1 mm.

    I'm confused by this. You should not need (or have) a 1mm spacer with a Tiagra cassette on that hub. And no, the 501 is not 11 speed compatible.

    And you should only have 1 spacer with the Ultegra cassette on this hub, not 2.

    Just to be clear, we are talking about the spacers that go under the cassette, is that what you mean?
  • R501 is relatively recent upgrade from R500 so saying 'old' seems strange here.
  • tim wandtim wand Posts: 2,945
    Okay two amendments.

    Wheels are older WHR 500's not 501s

    Tiagra cassette has one spacer under the Cassette approx. 1mm

    Ultegra (cs 6600 10 speed) cassette has same spacer under the cassette plus an additional spacer where the cassette splits into additional individual ratios. Last two ratios 13 and 11 have ramps on them which give the index spacing.

    The 6800 cassette has three spacers . as I ve dropped it not sure where they go. But would imagine .

    One behind the main spider. and others where individual ratios are which don't have a ramp profile on them.

    Either way 6800 cassette is bigger by more than the 1mm quoted on most tech sites. Maybe I should try no spacer behind the spider, and just the two spacers between ratios which are individual cogs, although I still think this will not work.
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    The 6800 cassette will not work on 10 speed Shimano hubs. End of. The 11 speed freehub is around 1.75mm longer than the 8/9/10 speed one.
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