Had an idea.. Always a bad thing... Frame protection.

morepower

Ok as some of you will know I play with carbon fibre from time to time.. I made my own rear mech protector and chain stay protector. A few friends have asked if I can do the same for them. I gave a few of the rear mech protectors to them to use and try... But the chain stay protector is a different story.Each bike is different so making a "one fits all" protector is not going to happen. But IF this was a service which you could have done at your local shop and they could make on the bike protection to go where ever you wanted on any tube, swing arm or chain stay is it worth looking into?

I know the process can be done by anyone with a few simple bits of equipment. Pre-preg carbon, scissors, sharp bladed knife some special tape to protect the frame and some to wrap the carbon as it cures and a small electric blanket type heater. I have a company who make the heaters lined up as I use them for other things and they offered to make me one to use if I need it. I dont want to do the wrap myself as shipping a bike/frame back and forth is more expensive than making the part. But if I built up a kit which included everything for a dealer to use and trained them up to do it is is worth while?




It would allow the carbon to run the full length of the part you want to cover unlike some of the wrap round neoprene type ones and if you damage it then it can be cut off and re-wrapped. I have been running mine a while on my hard tail and it has had a pounding with chain slap and has not got a mark on it. It adds next to no weight is strong and if a dealer does the work could be done when the bike is serviced or in less than 2 hours from start to finish.

Mine was just a fast and dirty fix as I didnt use the tapes I would use if I were doing it again and was just a quick fix ready for the next ride the day after I made it...

Not sure how much a dealer would charge if they did it and it would depend on the area they need to cover. But it would be comparable to Rock Guardz and not limited to just the down tube.

Is it worth looking into even more??

97th choice

I like the idea of carbon protection for areas, maybe on down tubes or to protect against cable rub, but as far as a chain stay protector is concerned I will always go for neoprene because I want it to dampen noise as well.

The Rookie

With 97thC here, I like the idea of a downtube protector - add something to the kit for those with BB routed cables please - and I'd be interested!

Wooliferkins

For a dealer it's time and compliance with HSW and CoSHH. While it is curing you have a bike in one place for the two hours. Your workshop has to be properly ventilated, the task risk assessed etc. It's a nice fix for metal frames but the admin may prove a problem for some.
Is the mech protector bolted to existing holes?

morepower

97th choice wrote:

I like the idea of carbon protection for areas, maybe on down tubes or to protect against cable rub, but as far as a chain stay protector is concerned I will always go for neoprene because I want it to dampen noise as well.

To be honest it has to have a softer tape under the pre-preg which does add a little dampening too. This serves two purposes. One is so it can be removed if damaged and not stick to the frame. I have to use a special chemical release agent to stop the carbon sticking where it shouldnt in the mould 'cause when it sticks it REALLY sticks. I used a thin electrical tape but I have a special silicone tape to put under the carbon. So secondly it would also dampen out noise, not retain water and fine particles like sand which will eventually scratch at the surface.

As for other areas it is down to who fits it onto the bike as to where and how neat it is done. So shaped areas would not be a problem as long as the person doing understands how it has to be done. Templating the area and then cutting the shape on the material before it is applied is easy and how thick they make it would be down to them too so a thin cover is 1 or 2 layers (.3 or .6mm thick) an area which takes a pounding can be up to 10 layers thick (3mm).
It would just be a case of making sure the heated blanket fits round the area fully.

There is no ventilation needed as there is no vapour as it is an epoxy resin not a styrene based one and as it is wrapped with a special heat shrink and release coated tape which seals the part totally. The power supply to the blanket is 12 volts too and the temperature is less than 100 degrees C. If it went up to 120 degrees C the part would cure in about 15 minutes. The blanket has a controller which sets the rate it heats up, the time it cures for and the maximum temperature it will reach. I actually make parts in a MDF box oven as I dont need to go above 65 degrees C.


Wooliferkins I actually do this stuff for a living but doing one off parts for people is expensive if you have to have it shipped and it is an easy thing for a dealer to do and they can charge what they want to do it...
Here is the stuff I make for a living....



Yes I attached it to existing holes on my frame. I didnt make them to sell to be honest I just did it for me. But I gave 5 more of them to friends to try and use too. One is is mates with a runner up in some world championship and he saw it and wanted one for his bike. lol. But It could be adapted to fit other bikes it just needs to have a proper mould made when I fine tune the shape a little more....

njee20

Can't see dealers wanting to get involved. What if something happens to a customer's bike from a poor application? Any manufacturer would walk away from a warranty claim if they saw that. 2 hours is a long time too.

By all means do it as a kit for home application, but I'd not invest thousands in it as a scheme.

morepower

If they put it on wrong you just remove it.... heat?? At less than 100 degrees it is less than half the heat of powder coating. It is just a cover that can be removed at any time. I applied mine in 15 minutes but it just took the time to cure it which you do not need to stand there watching it as the equipment does the work... Once it is cure all you do is turn off and remove the blanket, cut the tape which is wrapped round the part and give it a polish..

The problem with a home made kit is the cost of the heated blanket and controller.
It is such a low temperature I have actually done one with a simple bubble wrap tent and small fan heater. It took longer to cure as I wanted to make sure it was all warmed up but a blanket wrap would keep the heat where it is needed and cure it in about 1 hour. So allowing an hour to lay it up and remove it all is generous. They could be servicing the rest of the bike while it cures... The cost of the raw material for my chain stay protector was about £4.00.

Wooliferkins

Hear where you're coming from but having 5+ employees and a public premises opens up a world of different things legally. Have a read of the safety data sheet that comes with the pre preg, I bet it doesn't say harmless or inert. As an employer you have to mitigate against these risks by law. Now it's good looking work without a doubt but the next level up involves some formal ass covering.

morepower

Wooliferkins wrote:

Hear where you're coming from but having 5+ employees and a public premises opens up a world of different things legally. Have a read of the safety data sheet that comes with the pre preg, I bet it doesn't say harmless or inert. As an employer you have to mitigate against these risks by law. Now it's good looking work without a doubt but the next level up involves some formal ass covering.

Here is what it put with the materials....
The following precautions must be taken when using epoxy resin prepregs:

Impervious gloves must be worn
Overalls must be worn
Curing schedule is meant to be a guide only and is subject to local conditions.
To avoid exotherm particular care must be taken with thick laminates.
Ramp rates must not exceed 0.5°C per minute during initial cure.
Ramp rates must not exceed 20°C per hour when postcuring

The controller does the ramp rate part and is programmed into it. Exotherm is for thick parts 10mm+ thick. Post cure does not apply for most applications but if the part needs to withstand higher temperatures then it applies to that purpose.

rockmonkeysc

Carbon seems like the wrong material to me. It might look nice when new but not for long.
A soft material with better noise absorbing properties would be better. The price also needs to reflect the fact that its effectively a wear part.
To me it seems either a cheap rubber product or an old inner tube is much better.

Wooliferkins

There you go, we're into a risk assessment to be written, logged and annually reviewed. Safety Data Sheets to be filed and kept.
No you're not going to watch it for an hour but in the servicing of the bike you are not going to really want other jobs going on around it to reduce the risk of oils solvents etc on the blanket or just knocking of cables etc. (Murphy's Law applies)

If you had a big workshop where you can do this reasonably undisturbed it would work. You can have a clean area where you can clean the tube, cut and measure your pre preg then apply it without anyone getting oils and greases on the work.
In some ways a regional dealership would ensure enough frames coming through the shop to warrant the tooling outlay as well as building a knowledge base to allow a library of pre cuts to be generated.

morepower

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Carbon seems like the wrong material to me. It might look nice when new but not for long.
A soft material with better noise absorbing properties would be better. The price also needs to reflect the fact that its effectively a wear part.
To me it seems either a cheap rubber product or an old inner tube is much better.

I would agree wet lay carbon is not a good idea. Wet lay used the same weight of resin to material so 100gr of carbon uses 100gr of resin to make a part. Pre-pregs would use 40 to 45gr of resin. Once you get down to sub 30gr you are into balistic carbons which deform. I have been using mine a while now and not a mark on it... The sub material under the carbon allows some movement too and absorbs some of the sound so a 1mm thick silicone would remove most of the noise and still allow the part to be removed and replaced if it is damaged. A 1 to 2mm thick inner tube is a good cheap option. As I said it was an idea and I have been making carbon parts for a while now both wet lay and pre-pregs. It is just taking the same onsite methods F1 use for repairs and putting it into a consumer market place. I could do them day in day out easily if the frames arrived here but shipping them up and back is the most expensive part. It just seemed like an idea which may work if done right... Thanks for feed back though.... I will go back to playing with the usual day to day stuff...lol.

njee20

I was thinking about something like paint damage actually - a lot of frames don't respond well to having things stuck to them and removed, even helicopter tape can remove paint.

morepower

njee20 wrote:

I was thinking about something like paint damage actually - a lot of frames don't respond well to having things stuck to them and removed, even helicopter tape can remove paint.

Ah... the silicone tape does not stick to the frame like adhesive and will only stick to its self. So with 1mm of that you can cut off the carbon and it will release from the silicone. The silicone will cut easily and just pull away from the frame. We use a silicone material for vacuum bags which is reusable as it does not stick to the pre-preg. It is the same stuff just in a tape form..

Clank

Technicalities aside, I can't see many dealers being interested, I'm afraid. A neoprene jobbie can be fitted in two minutes, with no chemicals, no messing about with tape, no equipment, no heat, no fuss. It costs a tenner. Twenty quid, tops. If I screw up fitting it, I tear it off and reapply it. I can't miss-cure it, I can't get psoriasis from handling it.

You might just about be able to compete on material cost, but when we factor in workshop time and facilities it's not looking favourable. I doubt the cost/benefit adds up, therefore I can't see there being any business case, which is a shame because they do look as cool as. But looking cool isn't enough.

For those reasons, ahm oot.

morepower

As I said it was just an idea... I work with the stuff everyday so know every aspect of what is involved in making the parts. It was just having a few people who have seen my work on the bike both out at the trail and in photos via facebook I got asked about doing it.... As I said if people were here I would do them day in day out as it really is easy if you have the equipment. But sending a frame or bike and returning it is not cost effective and as pointed out it does not have to be just the chain stay but any part which can be wrapped with the small 12v heated blanket. I only made the rear mech protector for my own use from a cut up Aprilia Frame protector then made a pre-preg version for my own bike. I have given 5 or 6 more of them to others including one bike shop... I had no intent selling them so my mould is just a quick and dirty splash mould... lol




The mould is cheap and was only made to make 2 or 3 for me before being binned..

mike hunts alpine

Best way to find out would be to give it a go. Trial runs in some lbs maybe.

rockmonkeysc

One problem for me (ignoring cost) is that I don't want to have to book my bike in to a workshop just to fit a chainstay protector.
Why not buy a few popular, broken frames on ebay. Use them as a template and sell complete products.
You're business plan won't last if popular, you cannot patent your idea so shops will just buy their own materials and bypass you.

Kowalski675

I can see a market for the mech protector, but a carbon chainstay protector doesn't make sense to me, since (as has already been said) it won't stop the noise, just the paint damage (and will look just as tatty as chipped paint once it's been knocked around a bit). A neoprene or rubber one stops damage and reduces noise, and is a throwaway two minute fit solution.