5th cyclist dies in 9 days

andrewwaite

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/london-cycling-deaths-prompt-calls-action-114109679.html#M6ql6MX

Some thing as to be done NOW

Pross

But what should be done? If the circumstances are all the same then you can look at a solution but if they all differ you can't. There are very few details for this latest tragedy but at that time of night it is possible (though in no way am I saying it is the case!) that the cyclist did not have lights on the bike and was wearing dark clothing as an example of what I see on a daily basis in Cardiff.

The Bow fatality looks like it might be the latest in a small cluster of similar accidents at the same location in which case it needs urgent investigation but this latest death could be a completely random event. It's easy to say something must be done but if it were that easy then it would be done.

Bozman

They've just had Radio 5Live out on a junction in central London, the main visual issues seemed to be cyclists going through red lights and weaving in and out of traffic, while that's still happening the general populous won't give a damn.
Another point made, there are more cyclists on the road than ever yet the accident rate hasn't increased and in real terms it's dropped. Plus if you take London out of the equation this issue would be virtually non existent.

andrewwaite

I agree with what your saying, and I am not blaming the driver or the cyclist for the accident but how long do you let it go on.

Pross

andrewwaite wrote:

I agree with what your saying, and I am not blaming the driver or the cyclist for the accident but how long do you let it go on.

But again, how do you stop it? Do you think we would have circa 3000 deaths on the road each year including around 100 cyclists if it was that easy to do something?

rickeverett

Think there needs to be a combination of a police crackdown, education and control.

The cycle groups need to stop moaning about the roads and actually focus on the increasing number of idiot cyclists they represent in London etc jumping red lights, darting up the inside and outside of large vehicles and generally being crap on the road.



It's starting to make the rest of us look bad. I have noticed a increase in anti cyclist behaviour by drivers.

AndyK2479

I see this from a couple of different angles, I'm a cyclist and a copper, in fact I cycle at work and was around the Millbank area yesterday, when the lad was in the collision outside Millbank tower. I've been off today so don't know his condition but just seeing his bike in the aftermath was spine chilling.

I see some poor driving when I'm out and about BUT....some of the cycling I see is verging on the maniacal, some of it I put down to inexperience, some to a lack of common sense, some to sheer arrogance.
The number of times I have said to cyclists "watch yourself going on the inside of this static traffic" and been met with rolling eyes, sarcastic replies or mainly just being ignored bemuses me. But they are all grown ups and can make their own choices.


I'm not one for dishing out tickets, believe me I'm not, but I'm obliged to stop and speak to cyclists who shoot through red lights, reason why? Because if I don't the next time I pull over the cabbie or the van driver driving poorly, I get the standard response "What you doing about the cyclists going through the reds".

It's easy to blame truck drivers for every tragedy, but every one of these collisions is investigated by experienced Collision Investigators and I'm not certain, but how many have ended in prosecutions?

I would like to see, as a cyclist, segregated cycling lanes in London, will it happen? Your guess is as good as mine.
But while sensible and not so sensible cyclists are in close proximity to big vehicles then these tragedies will continue, all you can do as a cyclist is give yourself the best chance of getting anywhere safely.

rickeverett

AndyK2479 wrote:

I see this from a couple of different angles, I'm a cyclist and a copper, in fact I cycle at work and was around the Millbank area yesterday, when the lad was in the collision outside Millbank tower. I've been off today so don't know his condition but just seeing his bike in the aftermath was spine chilling.

I see some poor driving when I'm out and about BUT....some of the cycling I see is verging on the maniacal, some of it I put down to inexperience, some to a lack of common sense, some to sheer arrogance.
The number of times I have said to cyclists "watch yourself going on the inside of this static traffic" and been met with rolling eyes, sarcastic replies or mainly just being ignored bemuses me. But they are all grown ups and can make their own choices.


I'm not one for dishing out tickets, believe me I'm not, but I'm obliged to stop and speak to cyclists who shoot through red lights, reason why? Because if I don't the next time I pull over the cabbie or the van driver driving poorly, I get the standard response "What you doing about the cyclists going through the reds".

It's easy to blame truck drivers for every tragedy, but every one of these collisions is investigated by experienced Collision Investigators and I'm not certain, but how many have ended in prosecutions?

I would like to see, as a cyclist, segregated cycling lanes in London, will it happen? Your guess is as good as mine.
But while sensible and not so sensible cyclists are in close proximity to big vehicles then these tragedies will continue, all you can do as a cyclist is give yourself the best chance of getting anywhere safely.

Well put.


I do think the campaign groups and London cycle groups need to address the behaviour of cyclists before they moan about the road network. There seems to be too much blame on the driver a lot of the time.

MattC59

AndyK2479 wrote:

I see this from a couple of different angles, I'm a cyclist and a copper, in fact I cycle at work and was around the Millbank area yesterday, when the lad was in the collision outside Millbank tower. I've been off today so don't know his condition but just seeing his bike in the aftermath was spine chilling.

I see some poor driving when I'm out and about BUT....some of the cycling I see is verging on the maniacal, some of it I put down to inexperience, some to a lack of common sense, some to sheer arrogance.
The number of times I have said to cyclists "watch yourself going on the inside of this static traffic" and been met with rolling eyes, sarcastic replies or mainly just being ignored bemuses me. But they are all grown ups and can make their own choices.


I'm not one for dishing out tickets, believe me I'm not, but I'm obliged to stop and speak to cyclists who shoot through red lights, reason why? Because if I don't the next time I pull over the cabbie or the van driver driving poorly, I get the standard response "What you doing about the cyclists going through the reds".

It's easy to blame truck drivers for every tragedy, but every one of these collisions is investigated by experienced Collision Investigators and I'm not certain, but how many have ended in prosecutions?

I would like to see, as a cyclist, segregated cycling lanes in London, will it happen? Your guess is as good as mine.
But while sensible and not so sensible cyclists are in close proximity to big vehicles then these tragedies will continue, all you can do as a cyclist is give yourself the best chance of getting anywhere safely.

Well put !

adr82

AndyK2479 wrote:

I see some poor driving when I'm out and about BUT....some of the cycling I see is verging on the maniacal, some of it I put down to inexperience, some to a lack of common sense, some to sheer arrogance.

This is a bigger problem than most cyclists seem to want to admit, especially those who are guilty of it. I see a lot of bad drivers too, but for sheer stupidity and recklessness they're all outstripped by the worst cyclists. Gaily weaving in and out of traffic and pedestrians, ignoring traffic lights, riding against traffic, cutting across roads without so much as a glance over the shoulder, squeezing through ridiculous gaps, wearing headphones and of course doing all this while not wearing any lights even after dark. I'm amazed more cyclists aren't being killed to be honest.

terry2708

AndyK2479 wrote:

I see this from a couple of different angles, I'm a cyclist and a copper, in fact I cycle at work and was around the Millbank area yesterday, when the lad was in the collision outside Millbank tower. I've been off today so don't know his condition but just seeing his bike in the aftermath was spine chilling.

I see some poor driving when I'm out and about BUT....some of the cycling I see is verging on the maniacal, some of it I put down to inexperience, some to a lack of common sense, some to sheer arrogance.
The number of times I have said to cyclists "watch yourself going on the inside of this static traffic" and been met with rolling eyes, sarcastic replies or mainly just being ignored bemuses me. But they are all grown ups and can make their own choices.


I'm not one for dishing out tickets, believe me I'm not, but I'm obliged to stop and speak to cyclists who shoot through red lights, reason why? Because if I don't the next time I pull over the cabbie or the van driver driving poorly, I get the standard response "What you doing about the cyclists going through the reds".

It's easy to blame truck drivers for every tragedy, but every one of these collisions is investigated by experienced Collision Investigators and I'm not certain, but how many have ended in prosecutions?

I would like to see, as a cyclist, segregated cycling lanes in London, will it happen? Your guess is as good as mine.
But while sensible and not so sensible cyclists are in close proximity to big vehicles then these tragedies will continue, all you can do as a cyclist is give yourself the best chance of getting anywhere safely.

Well said. This a tragedy but there will be many more if people continue riding like idiots. I drove a car around the city (Liverpool Street) the other morning and was staggered at the standard of the majority of cyclists, inside of buses, lorries, me and other cars. Cutting across people at ped ex's and as for red lights, they appeared to be ignored by a huge amount of people.
I am really sad about these deaths but if everyone rides with common sense and within the law we can all be a lot safer.

PS I will never ride into the city on my bike.

sungod

i commute every day in london by bike, usually fast as or faster than traffic, but i don't undertake, run lights, etc. etc., i'm quite chilled about it, waiting for others and being polite is not an issue for me

last night i was just plain scared by a few idiots on bikes ignoring basics and putting me in danger - wrong side of the road, going around cars/pedestrians head-on into my path, running lights, etc.

there are idiots walking/cycling/driving, all need to stop being selfish, develop some awareness of how their actions affect others and accept that being polite and considerate is the honourable way to live

awavey

rickeverett wrote:

I do think the campaign groups and London cycle groups need to address the behaviour of cyclists before they moan about the road network. There seems to be too much blame on the driver a lot of the time.

because the police (and I cant remember if its city or Met) stats show in the majority of these accidents, & the figure is around the 66%-75% mark, the driver WAS to blame, and that apparently excluded accidents where no apportion of blame could be determined.

why that doesnt translate into more drivers prosecuted as a result I dont know, but the CPS seem to have set the bar quite high to get these things to court, and even then only it seems in extreme cases & most of which seem to collapse or end up with very lenient outcomes, which creates a perception whether its true or not, that its ok to knock a cyclist off a bike, because you saw one last week go through a red light, or they werent wearing a helmet, thats how it seems to be justifying it, its the cyclists own fault, which seems such a crazy position to have got ourselves in

Pross

With prosecutions there seems to be a reluctance by the CPS as juries seem to adopt the attitude of 'it could easily be me in the dock' and are therefore reluctant to convict. What is really baffling is some of the sentencing when people are convicted. I think the poor behaviour by cyclists is spreading to other cities too. In Cardiff and Bristol there are far more people riding and I often feel I'm the only one stopping at lights or sitting behind large vehicles rather trying to squeeze through a 0.5m wide gap.

mididoctors

the issue is volume of riders many of whom are inexperienced.

its more a case of knowledge than blame.

you have to ride defensively as a cyclist almost if not pass the point where you expect poor driving from other road users especially oversized vehicles. where the blame lies is irrelevant if you are flattened by a turning truck. While there is poor consistency in court cases in cyclist vs truck/car and many accidents are the result of poor defensive riding a car/truck always at fault default may have some merit

the issue of education is being addressed somewhat. the number of warning signs on the back of lorries telling cyclist to hang back but the process continues. There was a spate of tfl adverts about trucks vs cyclists that were quite good. There is also a need to get into schools with proper cycle training. Schools around our way (Hackney) seem to be doing this.

unixnerd

I think we need:

1: To recognize cyclists are dying all over the UK

2: To have the Police really crack down on cyclists with no lights or who jump red lights, it's not acceptable.

3: A major investment in cycle training for all ages. It may not be a cyclist who causes an accident, but if we can prevents some by training folk how to avoid dangerous situations it can only help.

4: All bike sales outlets should have free booklets on how to cycle safely. A lot of newcomers haven't cycled in years, it can only help to focus their minds on correct practice.

5: First aid certificate needed to pass a driving test and all cars to carry first aid kits, they do that in some other EU countries I believe.

6: All new bicycles to be sold with lights, won't add more than a tenner to the price if that.

Anything involving infrastructure won't help in the short to medium term.

redvee

Make it 6 now though the Bristol death below seemingly didn't involve a motor vehicle.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Breaking-n ... story.html

w00dster

I work in London and travel in from canary to the city every day.
To me the main problem in London is that everyone is on the clock and in a rush, be it cyclists, Taxi drivers, hgv drivers or even pedestrians.
The roads are flooded with construction works, general road works, new building works or rail works. This causes an influx of tipper trucks and hgv's that do not seem to drive at a safe speed and are trying to skip the lights. The HGV drivers are on a clock, paid to get a delivery into a congested city and with only x amount of hours before they have to rest. Then Taxi Drivers are on the clock, but being slowed down by road works and general congestion causing some of them to take risks.
Now cyclists, I dont think its always down to lack of experience. I personally dont think Strava helps, I know lots of experienced cyclists who use the commute in as a training session. Whilst this may seem ok, when you take into account the traffic at 8am in central london, I find it madness. I have unfortunately witnessed accidents and very recently was almost knocked over by a cyclist (clad in Rapha) going down a road the wrong way (Queen Victoria Street, dual carriageway, for those who know it)
Unixnerd has some good suggestions, but in London I honestly feel seperate infrastructure is the only way to go.

dilemna

Thankfully the only hazards I have to worry about on my commute are pheasant, rabbits and horses.

bompington

From reading this thread, the logical conclusion is that the majority of cyclists killed in London recently were jumping red lights and generally riding like idiots.

cattytown

The big problem wit separate infrastructure is where to put it. Very few cities ave much spare space to build additional paths, and even if there are canals that are out of the way and can be expanded, there will still be the last mile from the path to destination that would be on shared roads.

In one respect I think this is symptomatic of one the biggest issues we have these days. We are all becoming more selfish. We are in a hurry all the time and cannot tolerate even a few seconds delay in our hurry to get to the next set of lights.

Add onto that all the bile that is now apparently not just accepted but expected...

Paul.

top_bhoy

I hope cyclists don't get caught up with the media hype trying to deflect the problem away from the real culprits...the driver. How many of the cyclists killed each year were actually doing the wrong thing; either by intention or ignorance? Yes there may have been one or two but reality is the vast majority of accidents are still caused by bad driving. The reality is that the law treats the cyclist with disdain and the driver continues along the same bad behavioural path knowing the status quo remains.

Guanajuato

The problem is one of the two people involved in an accident, that could actually give 1st hand evidence to the investigators, is usually dead. So the investigator gets one side 'He came from nowhere, ocifer' = I thought my time was more valuable than his life. 'They were weaving all over the road' = They wobbled a bit after hitting a pothole and I hadn't given them enough room. 'They jumped a red light' = They stopped with a bike length beyond the line because some pillock in a van had stopped at the ASL.

Always assume the driver has seen you and is out to get you. I know its a rather OTT extension of assume the driver hasn't seen you and will do something stupid. But I've had too many incidents where drivers very obviously HAVE tried to take me out - Make eye contact and then accelerate to cut across you, Weaving in slow moving traffic, full lock on at lights to block the (safe) route to an ASL. Make eye contact, then pull out of the side road anyway, whilst giving you abuse for daring to be on the road and interupting their phone call/makeup session/self-pleasuring.
This is in a relatively quiet town, where I'm on the main road for about 400 yards in total. Dread to think what its like somewhere that's actually busy.

top_bhoy

awavey wrote:

rickeverett wrote:

I do think the campaign groups and London cycle groups need to address the behaviour of cyclists before they moan about the road network. There seems to be too much blame on the driver a lot of the time.

because the police (and I cant remember if its city or Met) stats show in the majority of these accidents, & the figure is around the 66%-75% mark, the driver WAS to blame, and that apparently excluded accidents where no apportion of blame could be determined.

why that doesnt translate into more drivers prosecuted as a result I dont know, but the CPS seem to have set the bar quite high to get these things to court, and even then only it seems in extreme cases & most of which seem to collapse or end up with very lenient outcomes, which creates a perception whether its true or not, that its ok to knock a cyclist off a bike, because you saw one last week go through a red light, or they werent wearing a helmet, thats how it seems to be justifying it, its the cyclists own fault, which seems such a crazy position to have got ourselves in

Safety on the roads wont change until this lack of prosecution has been addressed.

kieranb

well, given the posts expressed here on a cycling forum, my take is that they seem to be implicitly blaming the cyclists, not much hope then for any understanding from the non-cycling public. Froma quick look, I can't see any evidence that in these cases the person was RLJing, going ninja at night, weaving through traffic etc so why brng them up?

Pross

kieranb wrote:

well, given the posts expressed here on a cycling forum, my take is that they seem to be implicitly blaming the cyclists, not much hope then for any understanding from the non-cycling public. Froma quick look, I can't see any evidence that in these cases the person was RLJing, going ninja at night, weaving through traffic etc so why brng them up?

I agree that there is nothing to suggest any fault is with the cyclists in these instances. However, I think the point people are making is that there is a lot of bad riding out there. It is a bit of balance to the usual approach we tend to take as cyclists that the motorist is always at fault. I've seen a huge increase in the amount of people cycling in Cardiff on my ride into work in the last couple of years which is great but there is definitely a downward trend in terms of the standard of riding to go with it. It isn't all 'newbies' who don't know better either. Fortunately I haven't seen any accidents but I'm amazed that I haven't. I would say at least 80% of riders I see jump the lights, they probably don't think they are as they do that two stage thing and then ride through pedestrian crossings that are showing a green man. Most cyclists I see do have lights although some are not up to the job but I have seen students riding in dark clothes with no lights (fortunately the street lighting is good).

The big issue though is the filtering. At face value if an accident occurs when a cyclist is doing this then it is the motorists 'fault' and rightly so. However, we owe ourselves a duty of care too - we are the vulnerable party and we have to realise we might not be visible to the vehicle we are passing. Even as a cyclist aware driver I sometimes struggle to see bikes passing me in static traffic especially if it is dark and wet, you just see a load of lights, and be honest with yourself - when driving do you always check thoroughly before making a left turn?

There's no point being the completely innocent party in an accident, it doesn't make you less dead / injured - far better to do everything in your power not to be involved at all even if that means your journey takes a bit longer.

ManOfKent

kieranb wrote:

well, given the posts expressed here on a cycling forum, my take is that they seem to be implicitly blaming the cyclists, not much hope then for any understanding from the non-cycling public. Froma quick look, I can't see any evidence that in these cases the person was RLJing, going ninja at night, weaving through traffic etc so why brng them up?

Details about the accidents are scarce, although I did see in one report this week that the cyclist (who had been run over by a bus or truck) "wasn't wearing a helmet". In my opinion it's statistically likely that some of the victims were doing one or more of the things you've listed, at the time they died - simply because they're so commonplace in London. Whether such actions increase your risk of being involved in a serious or fatal accident is a different, important and unanswered question. It seems most posters here believe intuitively that they do - and I prefer us (collectively) to be speaking out rather than waiting for other road users to point out our (collective) mistakes.

unixnerd

There's no point being the completely innocent party in an accident, it doesn't make you less dead

Exactly. Drivers may be to blame to many accidents but if cyclists have the training to ride defensively it will save lives.

cougie

If a truck, bus or coach crushes you - I don't see what use a helmet would be ?

markhewitt1978

dilemna wrote:

Thankfully the only hazards I have to worry about on my commute are pheasant, rabbits and horses.

I've had a few close calls with rabbits I can tell you, although the worst was a sheep, at 30mph :shock:

cougie

Who knew sheep could run that fast ?