Sad. One more dead and another injured.

jspash

http://londonist.com/2013/11/cyclist-di ... ington.php

It does seem like accidents are on the increase this year. And so many on the poorly designed cycle "superhighway". I'm lucky that most of my commute is on a bus/taxi/bike only lane. A dedicated bike path would be better, but I don't see that happening any time soon. I've never ridden much in South London where the bike lanes intermingle with the regular traffic. How do you do it?

Be careful out there!

Squawk

Awful stuff, I rode up there 5 mins before the reported time it happened and was very nearly a statistic myself when a car pulled out without even glancing my way.

It's a surprise it doesn't happen more often,

raymondo60

jspash wrote:

I've never ridden much in South London where the bike lanes intermingle with the regular traffic. How do you do it?

Be careful out there!

Don't know if I'm in the minority but I think the Cycle Superhighways have been a positive influence. I'm a CS7 regular; pick it up at Colliers Wood and ride it up to Clapham Common, where I turn off for Vauxhall, then over Waterloo Bridge to Holborn. For what its worth those big blue lanes do discourage motorised vehicles to enter; there's a definite 'its for bikes' feeling and I feel safer, in general terms, as a result of being in them.

vimfuego

Haver to agree as a regular rider on CS7, CS7 is generally pretty good and respected by most motorists along the length of it in my experience - that said, going South through Tooting is a bit like playing Russian roulette sometimes with all the cars pulling out & peds stepping out in front of you because they're not looking for bikes (despite the blue paint etc). Helps that the roads are generally wide enough to accomodate it though, much narrower and you'd feel much safer with a segregated lane.

Keep your wits about you.

raymondo60

Tragically ANOTHER cyclist killed today, Wednesday, and again another serious injury.

That's FOUR cyclists killed in London during the last eight days; one on Holborn, one in Croydon, and two in East London. The girl who died this morning was 10 metres away from where two other cyclists were kiled in November 2011, on the notorious Bow Roundabout. The injured cyclist was a guy on the Millbank; he has 'life-threatening' injuries.

Just can't say anything else; too shocking really...........

FransJacques

What is wrong with this particular roundabout or stretch of road?

Is it a certain type of rider who uses it?

Are the cars not giving the cyclists enough space?

Are speeds faster then they are in the city?

Is the layout horrible?

Curious as to what the contributing factors are...

Colinthecop

FransJacques wrote:

Curious as to what the contributing factors are...

Without knowing the full facts it's probably wrong to surmise.... but then again this is the internet.

However, there's a lot of bad drivers out there and likewise there's a lot of bad cyclists. Or if not bad, those with little or no hazard perception. We've all seen people pull up the inside of vehicles who are indicating left.

In all honesty, it's a surprise the stats aren't much worse.

squired

Colinthecop wrote:

FransJacques wrote:

Curious as to what the contributing factors are...

Without knowing the full facts it's probably wrong to surmise.... but then again this is the internet.

However, there's a lot of bad drivers out there and likewise there's a lot of bad cyclists. Or if not bad, those with little or no hazard perception. We've all seen people pull up the inside of vehicles who are indicating left.

In all honesty, it's a surprise the stats aren't much worse.

Based on what I've been told from people who were on the scene in Croydon, there is a cycle path on the pavement. According to what they said, the cyclist was on that path, but then turned sharply to cross the road at traffic lights, into the path of the bus. That description would certainly fit with the photo in the article below, but obviously I can't guarantee that what they told me is actually 100% correct.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/1 ... witnesses/

jonnyboy77

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942

The Mayor of London's cycling commissioner, Andrew Gilligan, told BBC London: "The danger in the current atmosphere of understandable alarm and concern is that we rush into some panic measure which actually makes things worse."

He said that there were three deaths in the first six and a half months of the year in similar road conditions to now.

Mr Gilligan admitted that the death toll after nine days was "extraordinary" and said: "From the beginning, Superhighway 2 has been little more than blue paint and I've been pressing to change it."

He said plans to upgrade all the superhighway routes will go out to consultation in four months and that it would take 11 months for changes to happen.

He added that there were 69 pedestrian deaths last year but that pedestrians do not have as strong a voice in the media.

I understand the need to avoid a misjudged knee jerk reaction, but trying to compare 69 pedestrian deaths to 9 cyclists seems bizarre?

- Jon

kurako

I don't want to speculate on what has caused these accidents but it's important to help yourself by thinking about where you put yourself in relation to lorries and buses. Only this morning I saw someone try to ride up the right hand side of a right turning lorry at the top of Oakley St (opposite Chelsea Fire Station) even though he wanted to go immediately left up Doverhouse St. If he had managed to get past he would have then had to swing across the front of the cab. Thankfully he bugged out before becoming a statistic.

I worked out a long time ago the safest place with these large vehicles manouvering around is behind. They are very unlikely to hit you unless they suddenly slam into reverse! I know that flies in the face of the convention that it's safer to be in front. Please help drivers of these large vehicles to help you by giving them a wide berth.

raymondo60

Following on from Kurako above, and said in the utmost respect and without any reference to the fatalities of recent days……

I commute 3-4 days per week through South London up to Holborn, and ride at weekends for sport/leisure. I'm sorry to say that, on every single one of those commuting days, I witness at least one incident of a 'cyclist' making a manoeuvre or behaving in some way that makes me wince and think 'Carry on like that and you are going to get hurt'. That may be something as inane as riding at night with no lights, but more often it involves someone placing themselves in a position of extreme danger - alongside a bus or an articulated lorry etc - we all know where the dangerous places are. I am also amazed at just how impatient some 'cyclists' can be, rushing through traffic signals, pushing hard through narrowing gaps in traffic etc. I have sometimes had comments made to me from people on bikes behind, when I decide not to cycle alongside a bus etc, along the lines of 'Move up mate' and worse, at which point I offer them the position. I know I'm stating the obvious, and I repeat again that neither I or any if us can refer to any accidents unless we were there and clearly saw what happened, but we all know there are people on bikes out there who are a danger to themselves and potentially to others. I don't know what we can do about that, if anything at all.

oneiroi

jonnyboy77 wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942

The Mayor of London's cycling commissioner, Andrew Gilligan, told BBC London: "The danger in the current atmosphere of understandable alarm and concern is that we rush into some panic measure which actually makes things worse."

He said that there were three deaths in the first six and a half months of the year in similar road conditions to now.

Mr Gilligan admitted that the death toll after nine days was "extraordinary" and said: "From the beginning, Superhighway 2 has been little more than blue paint and I've been pressing to change it."

He said plans to upgrade all the superhighway routes will go out to consultation in four months and that it would take 11 months for changes to happen.

He added that there were 69 pedestrian deaths last year but that pedestrians do not have as strong a voice in the media.

I understand the need to avoid a misjudged knee jerk reaction, but trying to compare 69 pedestrian deaths to 9 cyclists seems bizarre?

- Jon

Not at all. It puts things in context - there is a risk (i'd say it's already happening) of disproportionate and ineffectual action because people incorrectly assess the risk involved in cycling. Every single cycling death this year has been reported. Nothing like that has happened for pedestrian or motorist deaths. That distorts how people see risk and distorts their behaviour. Cycling is still safer than walking!

Crouching Peeky

My problem with Gilligans quote regarding pedestrians is that pedestrians shouldn't be in the road to get hit by a car. If they are, either they or the car driver has done something they shouldn't be it go through a red light or crossed a road without looking.
Much more needs to be done regarding cycling in London. There are too many vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists. something has to give for the safety of all.

oneiroi

Crouching Peeky wrote:

My problem with Gilligans quote regarding pedestrians is that pedestrians shouldn't be in the road to get hit by a car. If they are, either they or the car driver has done something they shouldn't be it go through a red light or crossed a road without looking.
Much more needs to be done regarding cycling in London. There are too many vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists. something has to give for the safety of all.

and cyclists shouldn't be riding in the forward, road side or kerbside of large vehicles that sweep corners rather than track them. It's easy to say something 'shouldn't' be happening. Harder to tackle this problem in a way that's best for everyone. Like the 20mph zone idea - it does nothing to prevent or mitigate the biggest source of accidents which is between cyclists and large vehicles. Education does, but how do you enforce that? Segregation also does, but how do you do that in south and east London where these accidents are happening and there's already a lack of road space? I don't think it's a coincidence that north and west London with proper trunk roads and possibly less hgv traffic (and if I were feeling disingenuous, no superhighways) are not having the same problems.

t4tomo

Cycling is still safer than walking!

It think you are saying that on basis of 9 vs 69 deaths, but there are probably more than 8* the number of pedestrians to cyclists so your argument falls down.

Back to causes.

Too many inexperienced cyclists in what is pretty busy traffic that isn't particularly cyclcist aware

Poorly design cycle routes / paths that place cyclists in dangerous points as they suddenly end (that Croydon one looks odd from the picture but not seen it in the flesh)

Cyclists forced to mix with HGV's and Buses, both of which have pretty limited visibility

Some pretty ordinary standards of driving, particularly in London. Everyone in a rush focussing on themselves and agressively claiming there 3 metres of tarmac in heavy traffic.

oneiroi

t4tomo wrote:

Cycling is still safer than walking!

It think you are saying that on basis of 9 vs 69 deaths, but there are probably more than 8* the number of pedestrians to cyclists so your argument falls down.

Give me at least a little credit :roll:

Rate is death per billion miles travelled. The pedestrian death rate is 41 per billion miles, cyclists 35.

Source is the Department of Transport, so unless you've got a more reliable data set than they do...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eport-2011

Why so quick to judge what I said without doing even rudimentary research, or asking where I got the data?

jonnyboy77

oneiroi wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

Cycling is still safer than walking!

It think you are saying that on basis of 9 vs 69 deaths, but there are probably more than 8* the number of pedestrians to cyclists so your argument falls down.

Give me at least a little credit :roll:

Rate is death per billion miles travelled. The pedestrian death rate is 41 per billion miles, cyclists 35.

Source is the Department of Transport, so unless you've got a more reliable data set than they do...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eport-2011

Why so quick to judge what I said without doing even rudimentary research, or asking where I got the data?

You hadn't provided any data in your original post?

I still call bs on it being safer to cycle than walk, regardless of statistics.

- Jon

markhewitt1978

Perhaps skewed by those drunk people who walk out into the road?

oneiroi

jonnyboy77 wrote:

You hadn't provided any data in your original post?

In which case surely asking on what basis I'm making such a claim would be the thing to do rather than dismissing it? Googling "road deaths uk" is enough to get the source on the first page of results. But fair enough, I should have sourced it straightaway.

I still call bs on it being safer to cycle than walk, regardless of statistics.

- Jon

You're going to call BS on the most comprehensive source of accident data available for the UK on what basis exactly?

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Perhaps skewed by those drunk people who walk out into the road?

And the cycling data is skewed by cyclists doing less than ideal things on the road, and the car data is skewed by drunk drivers.
We know cyclists are being killed on the roads. We have lots of contributing factors. The bit that needs to be worked on is finding cost effective ways of reducing the death rate. Hysteria solves nothing.

One of the things that needs to be made clear to the public is the status of cycling as a form of transport. Massively simplifying, is it something we want to treat like being a pedestrian, where eveyone is entitled to do it regardless of 'ability', or like motor transport, where people can travel at speed, but need to demonstrate competence and have some level of liability? Because that decision changes the solutions you go for - segregated pathing is a necessity for the former, and the latter will require enforcement and will drastically reduce cycling's accessibility. A hybrid of the two is what we have now, and while that can be improved, it probably can't be made that much safer than it is now.

rayjay

I was riding with a chap this morning and we chatted about inexperienced cyclists, he then decided to squeeze up the inside of a massive truck with a huge trailer. Unbelievable.

mallorcajeff

Im currently working in the uk on a temp basis driving a lorry around the city most days of the week. I have to say i cycle many thousands of miles all year mainly in malllrca but since i have been driving a truck round lorry for the past couple of months (something ive not done for ten years) i cannot believe the ammount of bikes and the different levels in riding.

I hate to hear about the chcling desths but from what i see a hell of a lot are jusk asking for it. I love and live for cycling but today for instance im at the lights i go to pull away and this guy on a fixie comes down the outside and as im pulling away he dives across the front of my lorry between the kerb and my front bumper just as the clutch come up. I slam the brakes and push the horn, to be met with a single finger and then told to fukk off you fu@king c£Nt and then go straight down to the next set of lights. I was astounded as both a cyclist and as a driver. I was more alert i think due to being a cyclist but have to say people like this ask for it. I wouldnt wish harm on anybody with a bike and car collision but i think its unfair that people act like this and then if he had of gone under my truck it would be on my concience.

I wouldnt want this guy under my truck but given the chance if i met him at the lights again i would simply punch him straight off his bike for acting like that. People acting like this unfortunately give us all the same label and then were all seen as "fair game"

In the last four years in mallorca i would see on the news another detah in london and the usual tipper lorry in the background. But having driven a truck round london now for a while its amazing just how many people put themselves in dager and mostly unaware like cycling up the side of a lorry. If your car fitted up that gap half the people wouldnt do it in a car, why would you on a bike?

Sad but my attitude has changed since driving up there. Dont get me wrong i wish anyone harm but i dont have the sympathy i used to have for what i see day in day out. Those that cycle all day each day in london arr clearly doig something right, and i see thousands each day and i give them all the room they need and more but the old addage one bad apple spoils the lot rings true for a lot of car drivers in london.

I love cycling. If i lived in lodon, id have a scooter.

Always sad to hear of another death but with more and more people cycling i think its a natural demographic. If ten people cycled to work in london slim chance of one getting killed. If 10 million cycled to work a fair few will be involved in incidents. I think as more and more cycle the higher the rate of fatalaties will be purely on a numbers basis.

Mr.Duck

I've done stupid things. Getting up alongside a huge articulated lorry which then literally moves on top of me as it made a turn. Handlebar got caught and dragged a bit. I sort of needed it to happen once for the experience. Now I have learned from it.

Most of these deaths are probably caused by motor drivers not seeing the cyclist. The one thing I do that I'm good at is over taking properly. I never see anyone else doing that. All cyclists I see undertake by squeezing up between the moving car and the curb. Can no one overtake properly? Anyone else out there that can do it?

kieranb

jonnyboy77 wrote:

oneiroi wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

Cycling is still safer than walking!

It think you are saying that on basis of 9 vs 69 deaths, but there are probably more than 8* the number of pedestrians to cyclists so your argument falls down.

Give me at least a little credit :roll:

Rate is death per billion miles travelled. The pedestrian death rate is 41 per billion miles, cyclists 35.

Source is the Department of Transport, so unless you've got a more reliable data set than they do...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eport-2011

Why so quick to judge what I said without doing even rudimentary research, or asking where I got the data?

You hadn't provided any data in your original post?

I still call bs on it being safer to cycle than walk, regardless of statistics.

- Jon

Would be interesting to see expressed as per journey travelled (a typical journey by bike is probably longer than a typical walk).

pedro-paul

Hi Jeff ,
I totally agree with you on the few occasions I cycle though London , I see cyclist of a completely different breedof cyclist , Jumping lights , on and off the pavement etc , I think if you want the respect of the car drivers you need to "play the game" and abide by the rules yourself . I visit family in Mallorca 3 to 4 times a year plus a winter cycling trip there with friends , It a joy to drive out there and even better on bikes , the Spanish despite their reputation are most courteous on the roads , the roads in Mallorca are much quieter than the Uk and like you say in a post last year you only see a handful of cars in the mountain ranges .
Roll on March when im out there cycling again and bust a gut getting up la calorbra !