Sportful jacket problems..... reasonable or not?

qw122004

Am I being unreasonable? Opinions please!

I purchased a Sportful UK Rain jacket from a large, well-known, UK-based internet retailer in January this year. It seemed to be exactly what I wanted - really good fit and appeared to be well made with a reasonable balance of cost/performance.

Unfortunately, it turns out that the fabric durability is very poor. I was out last week in moderate rain for 30 minutes and it now leaks. Round the neck, left front-side shoulder (worst water ingress here) & right front-side shoulder. The seams all appear to be well sealed still, so I suspect that the fabric is simply too light and the membrane fails with repeated movement (i.e. wearing the jacket normally). I'm not impressed, especially since I haven't used it for four months, during the summer. I am well aware that taped seam garments need to be treated with care - in fact I haven't washed it yet for that reason, but in any case the seams appear to be fine.

I have requested to return it to the retailer, under the manufacturer's warranty, as I don't think it is fit for purpose; failing after so little use. I would prefer a refund, but I know that they don't have to offer one so I would of course accept a repair or replacement. Flawed fabric can't be repaired, so that leaves replacement.

They have replied simply stating that it cannot be returned and it isn't covered by the warranty and that I should re-proof it, to restore the waterproofing qualities to an 'as-new' level. They haven't offered to inspect it, to see why they think it leaks; just a flat refusal to even consider a replacement.

This is the latest.....
Quote: "Thank you for responding to my colleagues previous email.
As my colleague has previously explained. The protection waterproof garments provide deteriorates over time and through use. It is recommended that all waterproof garments are 're-proofed' to restore the waterproofing qualities to an 'as-new' level.
The jacket is likely leaking in the areas you describe due to use and the movement/motion seen around the shoulder.
If there is anything else that we can do, then please do not hesitate to get in touch and a member of our team will be happy to help."

Ha-ha. I don't find this reasonable or acceptable. Suggestions on how to procede please?
Thanks

Tom Virden

mfin

Suggestions on how to procede please?

Yes, why not try re-proofing it.

Failing that, why not post on a forum about it?

Wirral_paul

Given it's nearly a year old and presumably been used in the rain, then i think they are being reasonable to be fair.

Now expecting new for old on a waterproof jacket after 10 months - that would be unreasonable

MountainMonster

So they have said you should try re-proofing the jacket which is both inexpensive and not time consuming, and you think that is unfair?

mfin

We could form a support group? That might help.

wishitwasallflat

No one can ever tell you what's reasonable as that is a subjective term; however ...

It was good advice to re-proof it and if that works that will solve your problem.

If it doesn't then you could try contacting the manufacturer directly. I am not 100% certain but I am pretty sure that for anything which is more than six months old the onus is on the purchaser to prove any defect is associated with manufacture and or materials being not fit for purpose and that any defect was present at the time of purchase. Pre six months old the situation is reversed and that association is assumed (given normal use and care) and has to be disproved by the manufacturer retailer.

Personally I think you would struggle to prove what you need to prove. Particularly of you have effectively admitted that you have never re-proofed it as that is, for me, part of the normal care of any waterproof and breathable fabric. IME, however, many manufacturers often take a lenient view of these questions and so will offer a lot more than the legal minimum in an effort to preserve good customer relations and reputation. So even given that I would be pessimistic of your being able to prove any defect was due to manufacturing and/or materials at this point if you contact the manufacturer directly they may be prepared to help you out of goodwill. Certainly nothing to be lost by asking.

If you go down Sale of Goods Act route then I would say Good Luck (you will need it) and there is plenty of guidance available on the web about that.

Bozman

Is there such a thing as a waterproof jacket, gore-tex seems to be close and you have to re-proof that, steady rain on anything else and you will get wet.

qw122004

Thank you Ladies and/or Gentlemen for the replies - plenty of food for thought.

I get the distinct impression that I'm expecting too much from gear. I don't expect things to last forever, but it just feels like a rather short lifespan for the primary 'feature'.

Reproofing unfortunately provides only DWR, not waterproofing - that's why waterproofs require taped seams in order to be so. DWR provides a measure of water resistance, but is primarily there to provide breathability in the rain. If water wets out the surface of a breathable fabric, then there cannot be breathability as there is a film of water in the way. DWR is there to prevent the water film. Pressure testing (so many mm of a water column etc.) is required to ensure waterproofness and is separate from DWR coatings.
As an aside, I hadn't actually felt the need to reproof the jacket as the original DWR finish was still reasonably good.

I certainly don't expect to be handed out new-for-used simply because I think it isn't good enough - what I found rather odd was that I received a response from the retailer pretty quickly, simply saying that there couldn't be any possibility of a warranty claim. They didn't say ' We could only consider a warranty claim if you send it to the importer/manufacturer's rep. to be inspected and they determine that a warranty claim can be made'. Simply a flat refusal to consider a warranty claim. That is a contrast to the service I have had from Wiggle, CRC & Ribble, from whom I will continue to buy from, as they have each provided superior service in terms of customer care.

As I said, perhaps I am expecting too much.
Once again, thanks for the input.

Does anyone have anything particular for/against Endura waterproof jackets?

speedo

I purchased an Endura Windchill jacket 2 years ago and am now wearing it on my 3rd winter.
The jacket is sold as Waterproof / Windproof and breathable.
On several occasions over the winter months I have been out in heavy showers,and NOWHERE has the jacket let in any water,and have remained dry.
Excellent jacket and great value for money - Have recommended to many,and the recommendations have been taken up.
Buy yourself one and you will not be disappointed

Wirral_paul

I think you're maybe expecting too much from a "waterproof" jacket per se really. Unless you want to splash out £200+ on a Rapha Hardshell etc then you're going to get wet sooner or later. Honestly - most recommendations seem to say to reproof materials as often as every 6 months, so i'd give that a go and see how it goes

feemackenzie

On a jacket designed for the rain, I wouldn't expect such extensive leaking in the space of a year (unless its been rubbing under rucksack straps for example).

Slightly off topic but directly related. My freehub has stopped working, less than a year old but 1700 miles done. The LBS said they'd replace it under warranty - great - and then called to say they'd replace they whole wheelset!

So, the jacket, in my opinion, should be exchanged in good faith, provided the user hasn't deliberately damaged the waterproofing.

Just my opinion!

Greenbeetle

Sounds like a poor quality jacket bought from a retailer who doesn't give a toss.

It can get unfriendly and sarcastic around here more quickly than you might expect…

spankwilder

Just sounds like a jacket that needs reproofing?

SFT

Even the best kit needs reproofing. I have a Rapha rain jacket that needed reproofing and the Granger Performance Wash, followed by the Performance Proofer was excellent. It also benefited from tumble drying at a low temp.
http://www.grangers.co.uk/clothing.cfm

bsharp77

Hi Tom,
Just a note on Endura - I also have a windchill jacket that has been pulled out of the wardrobe yesterday for this miserable weather - its on its second year and really is as good as new.
Just to note on the windchill model - the back of it is not waterproof, but the jacket is really superb and I would buy another in a heartbeat - definitely punches above its weight in terms of price compared to some of the more expensive brands. Hope this is of some help.

mpatts

I have a real mix of goretex, eVent and the like, and the ALL say that they need regular washing to keep properly waterproof, with occasional re-proofing.

I had a triple layer goretex mountian hardwear shell (£300+) that leaked after six months. I moaned, they told me to wash it, I did, and hey presto no more leaks.

kwi

I have a mate that reviews mountain gear and he suggested an iron from time to time as well.

Garry H

kwi wrote:

I have a mate that reviews mountain gear and he suggested an iron from time to time as well.

You're probably safer using a tumble drier. Both work, assuming you don't melt the jacket...

racingcondor

If I were in your position I'd be dissapointed in the jacket but I wouldn't expect a replacement.

From the suppliers point of view it could have been worn twice or it could have been worn every day with a rucksack rubbing on those seams. They just can't tell but wear and tear isn't an unreasonable assumption on their part.

keef66

When I first started climbing and hillwalking I had a Helly Hansen waterproof. Completely impermeable in either direction, and it stayed that way for 15 years of frequent use without ever being washed. It's intended use was given away by the label inside which said: "Name of Ship:"

It was however very low tech; PVC coated fabric with the plastic on the outside, and it weighed a ton.

In the late 70's I replaced it with a first generation Goretex jacket. Much lighter and incredibly breathable, it seemed like a wonder fabric. Until it got slightly dirty that was, at which point it started leaking like a teabag. No amount of washing / reproofing would restore it's waterproof qualities. To their credit Berghaus replaced it twice under warranty, but my confidence in the technology was shaken.

Fast forward 30 years and I'm in east Anglia and cycling instead of climbing / walking. I've got a Gore Path jacket which is Goretex paclite. So far 100% waterproof, and reasonably breathable. (I can tell how breathable by the condensation on the taped and hence impermeable seams) I am aware however that I'll need to keep it clean and intermittently reproof it to maintain the DWR finish. I don't expect it to suddenly start leaking though.

In your position I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd try the reproofing but if that doesn't work I'd be wanting a refund / exchange. For something sold as waterproof I expect it to stay that way for a reasonable length of time.

Bozman

keef66 wrote:

I've got a Gore Path jacket which is Goretex paclite. So far 100% waterproof, and reasonably breathable. (I can tell how breathable by the condensation on the taped and hence impermeable seams) I am aware however that I'll need to keep it clean and intermittently reproof it to maintain the DWR finish. I don't expect it to suddenly start leaking though.

In your position I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd try the reproofing but if that doesn't work I'd be wanting a refund / exchange. For something sold as waterproof I expect it to stay that way for a reasonable length of time.

I've had that jacket for three years now, I went down a size to make sure that I had a close fit and it's been spot on, it's been washed plenty of times with Nikwax and re-proofed with the same, it's been down the road twice and has remained intact(unfortunately I was in it). It's still 100% waterproof ish.

I do have a Sportful hot pack and that's good for light showers and that's your lot, you get a pretty similar performance off the Sportful no rain arm warmers etc.

Monty Dog

AFAIK only GoreTex guarantee the waterproofness of their products - if the jacket leaks, return to the shop who send it to Gore - if it does leak, they'll replace it. For some products, a quick tumble-dry restores the DWR properties.
That said, depends on the jacket model, construction and fabric which the OP doesn't provide - anything less than £100 that claims waterproofness IME will drown you in perspiration or simply will not withstand prolonged exposure to rain.

akastana

QW -
did you end up trying to reproof it or not?

Got loads of 'waterproof' stuff, from Gore, eVent, etc.etc.etc all of it is a gamble, stuff I can genuinely recommend in one product ends up being useless in another (ie same GoreTex fabric in one jacket waterproof & not in another!)

Find something that works & stick with it.

In fairness their Extreme & Survival jackets are totally waterproof (and surprising breathable) but then you pay a premium!

qw122004

OP here. Wide variety of opinions & suggestions which make interesting reading.

"Name of Ship:" made me chuckle - I've come across HH before as I used to race performance dinghies in all weather for many years. Before the current age of impressive wetsuits, a drysuit was the only real option for long races in really cold conditions - my minor brand (can't even recall), relatively inexpensive, non-breathable one stood quite a few seasons of knocks with not one leak - I wouldn't dream of making or buying a cycling jacket with that material though as it was stiff, heavy and didn't breath one iota.

Comments on the Endura Windchill are interesting, as buying something that doesn't claim to be fully waterproof, but not too far away, means no disappointment when a little does get through - I had even been looking at the Sportful 'No Rain' Fiandre along those principles! (Price was out of my range though, but I'll look at the Windchill)

I also had a look at the Gore Path, attracted by the Gore promise and having a hood (even went to bricks & mortar to check sizing & potential purchase), but the fit wasn't what I wanted, so the Sportful ('UK Rain' jacket is the model) seemed the best pick. Very few stockists & none near me meant I couldn't actually see it before buying. However, I wasn't disappointed when it arrived. Quality of manufacture appears very good, although the fabric is really light - to me - and I suspect this may be the issue. The fabric is (I think) three layer, and surprisingly stretchy - full technical details are not listed on the Sportful website, but I suspect it is a PU film, rather than e-PTFE, which would account for the modest breathability rating; in practice that was fine as far as I was concerned.

The Sportful Survival & Extreme are rather beyond my budget unfortunately.

I haven't ever worn a backpack, or even anything else at all, over the jacket. Excepting some grub round the collar, it is nice and clean as I have full 'guards. For neon yellow that's fairly good.

I haven't gone down the reproofing route yet primarily because it doesn't really need it - the water still beads up & runs off well and DWR is separate from waterproofing; I also wanted to await the outcome of my request for a warranty claim.

The retailer still says that there cannot be any possibility of a warranty claim. That's it. They have offered no explanation of why (I have asked, but they will not give one) and won't even explain what the warranty procedure would be. This is what I feel is churlish. I don't really want to go down the Sale of Goods Act(s) route mentioned as there is plenty of (too much) litigation already, without adding relatively small things. I will simply no longer make use of their services, which they may or may not notice. I'm not into mud-slinging whenever someone disagrees with me, but if anyone really cares I would PM them the name in question. Aside from those already mentioned, it isn't Merlin Cycles either.

I have bought quite a bit of bike related gear in the last five years, but this is only my second waterproof. The first was an Altura Night Vision jacket (not the windproof), which was waterproof until I put it in the washing machine - 'delicates' cycle but not delicate enough. I didn't consider asking for a replacement/making a warranty claim as it didn't seem reasonable to do so. The only other clothing warranty request I have made was for a pair of Endura gloves (the left one) that burst apart when I had a spill and hit the tarmac at 20+. I told Wiggle exactly that (not 'I was JRA and my glove exploded....it's all your fault') and asked if they would consider a warranty claim. Generously, they/the manufacturer did.

I have actually contacted the UK distributor of Sportful to ask whether they could consider a warranty claim (jacket is less than ten calendar months old, though as mentioned I didn't put it on for four of those ) and they have responded positively, with a rather different attitude compared to the retailer. We'll see what the outcome is.

Thanks for all the comment and suggestions.

Coach H

If the retailer is widely known by a three letter acronim (and not CRC, as they are already mentioned), then had you been in this position 3-5 years ago you would have been posting what a fantastic response you got from the retailer and reccomending them to all and sundry.

Unfortunately for you, they expanded rapidly and the business probably stopped being what the founders wanted to do when they set up or they were made an offer they could not refuse, so they sold it. The new owners came with a reputation for poor customer service and have upheld the tradition in their new aquisition. Sometimes they are cheaper enough to warrant taking the risk, but for me mainly not worth it.

Assuming of course that I have correctly identified the retailer

Hopefully Sportful will sort it, good luck.

Pickled Pig

qw122004 wrote:

I have actually contacted the UK distributor of Sportful to ask whether they could consider a warranty claim (jacket is less than ten calendar months old, though as mentioned I didn't put it on for four of those ) and they have responded positively, with a rather different attitude compared to the retailer. We'll see what the outcome is.

Thanks for all the comment and suggestions.

I'm glad you have made progress on this. I've only just read this thread and am surprised how many people are accepting of a garment with a 12 month warranty failing after 10 months. As you have explained yourself, DWR is nothing to do with waterproofing - it affects breathability which is permeability to water vapour, not liquid. Neither is Sale of Goods an issue -the warranty forms part of your contract and you should benefit from what you have paid for. The retailers attitude was unacceptable and, personally, I would have threatened them with a card chargeback (assuming you paid by card) in these circumstances for failing to perform the contract.

qw122004

OP again.
Coach H 's description fits, unfortunately. It wouldn't be the first time a business radically changes in character, once the founder/s are no longer in control (Easyjet provides the opposite example to the retailer in question here - service seems to have improved with Sleazyjet!).

Chargeback suggested by PP is an interesting route that I hadn't considered and don't really know the ins & outs of, but I'll have a look for future reference.

In this case it's not now necessary, as Sportful's service (via their distributor C3 Products) has been diametrically opposed to that of the retailer. They have sent me a replacement jacket, in one week direct from Italy no less; thank you Sportful & C3. I am returning my used one to them for inspection.

Once again, thanks for all the input - multiple viewpoints are always beneficial.

gregg.pedder

Why won't you divulge the name of the offending company? Better we all know which online shops to avoid.

Personally i've never used PBK due to several recommendations (to not use) from friends. Like Coach says, would only use if the saving offset the risk!