Curiosity Killed the Cat

First.Aspect

Dear Hivemind,

Anyone know whether a landlord has any responsibilities in relation to criminal behaviour by a tenant?

One of our neighbours - not direct - for no good reason threatened to kill our cats the other day. He had to go out of his way to do so, so I think he enjoyed it. He works from home, we don't. They are outdoor cats.

Its in the hands of the police, but I'm curious as to other "leverage" there might be, such as appealing to the actual property owners of whom he is a tenant. Breaking the law doesn't seem to have bothered him in the past, but being threatened with hypothetically being kicked out just might.

He's a farmer so despite this guy clearly putting the "c(o)unt" in country he does the world's most difficult, important and saintly job, thus excusing speeding, threats of violence, animal cruelty, stalking and vandalism. (Allegedly - apart form the things he really has been convicted of). I understand that he'd have to kill an entire village before actually getting evicted, but he is conspicuously simple and so an "imagine if you have 3 beans and another 2 beans, how many five beans wouuld you have?" type of argument could just work to persuade him that he should tolerate other humans living within a mile of him.

Cat haters need not apply. You'll just get a rude PM from me. Its not just mine I'm concerned about, but any cat which might be killed for being a cat or looking like ours, of which there are several nearby. I've absolutely no sense of humour about this one (unless its a good joke - which rules out anyone from the road forum,)

Help.

tailwindhome

First Aspect wrote:

Anyone know whether a landlord has any responsibilities in relation to criminal behaviour by a tenant? .

Dunno.

Wouldn't have thought it.

You could try the RSPCA for advice....


Why has he threatened your cat?

EKE_38BPM

TailWindHome wrote:

Why has he threatened your cat?

Maybe he was feline agressive?
Tell him to paws for thought before doing something stupid. That would be the purrfect way to handle things.

itboffin

Yep call the RSPCA they'll tell you what to do or even take action themselves, good bunch IMO

First.Aspect

Honestly, I think its a "get of my land" issue. But this is Scotland (right to roam) and its not his land (he is a tenant farmer). And hes never seemed troubled before, said hello and so on. Then this.

The stated reason is that cat will spread disease and wipe out his flock. So, a bit like suggesting that we should shoot a dog because dogs can cause blindness. Only not, because that risk is far greater.

I'm off to make sure my flood barrier is up. I live on to of a hill, but I can't be certain that we won't get hit by a megatsunami.

SSPCA will have a quiet word, but this would involve rational argument. Have tried that. Obviously all now recorded, so if anything does happen (like historic rumours of cats losing paws and eyes, and dogs vanishing) he'll be in the frame. But even so, "beyond reasonable doubt" is a high bar and, well, I do like my cats as they are. Alive. Quadrupeds.

Giraffoto

First Aspect wrote:

The stated reason is that cat will spread disease and wipe out his flock.

Does he have a flock of cats? That must be as difficult as . . . I'm wracking my brains for the right simile here . . .

rubertoe

IMO.

Landlords generally dont want to know. as long as they are getting their money on time they couldnt care a toss about the tennant. Its too much hassle to get them out (costs and no guarantees) and it might take time to get a new tennant in.

Call the RSPCA/ Police and let them deal with it,

BelgianBeerGeek

I'm no Scottish law expert, but here's my tuppence worth...

If the cats are your property, he has no right to damage/kill them, or threaten to do so. If one of his sheep got into your garden and ate some plants, you wouldn't be entitled to kill or maim it. Of if cattle walking down the road squittered everywhere and you thought this was some kind of bio-hazard, I'm fairly sure you could not have them destroyed.

Tell him to eff off.

msmancunia

Again, I'm no law expert (and I really do hate cats - sorry), but I think the only thing he can do, is when a dog is worrying his sheep - he's got the right to shoot it. As for cats, he's just going to have to suck it up I think.

Under the Animals Act 1971, landowners are permitted to shoot a dog if is ‘worrying or about to worry livestock and if there are no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying’. The Act also permits a landowner to shoot a dog if it has ‘been worrying livestock, has not left the vicinity and is not under the control of any person and there are no practicable means of ascertaining to whom it belongs’.

daviesee

Little Tim was in the garden filling in a hole when his neighbor peered over the fence.

Interested in what the cheeky-faced youngster was up to, he politely asked, "What are you up to there, Tim?"

"My goldfish died," replied Tim tearfully, without looking up, "and I've just buried him."

The neighbor was concerned, "That's an awfully big hole for a goldfish, isn't it?"

Tim patted down the last heap of earth then replied, "That's because he's inside your stupid cat."

I've not had any mail today so please PM me.

arran77

daviesee wrote:

Little Tim was in the garden filling in a hole when his neighbor peered over the fence.

Interested in what the cheeky-faced youngster was up to, he politely asked, "What are you up to there, Tim?"

"My goldfish died," replied Tim tearfully, without looking up, "and I've just buried him."

The neighbor was concerned, "That's an awfully big hole for a goldfish, isn't it?"

Tim patted down the last heap of earth then replied, "That's because he's inside your stupid cat."

I've not had any mail today so please PM me.

Feel free to PM me as well

BTW you hit the nail on the head when you said the guy is a farmer, everyone knows that they do whatever the hell they like

team47b

How close could someone get without being seen, is there enough cover, where is the sun in late afternoon, what is the general wind direction, how many dogs, does the hill overlook his property?

Feel free to PM me as well, but it wont be cheap

DrLex

Opened, expecting discussion of Ben Volpeliere-Pierrot & Eighties pop or resurgence of Kylie Fridays; left disappointed.
(Agree with general feelings regarding farmers - "it is never hard to distinguish between a ray of sunshine and a farmer with a grievance")

rjsterry

Cats spreading disease? That's a new one, seeing as farmers always used to keep cats to keep rodents under control. What livestock does he have?

tailwindhome

Do cats attack sheep?

I know they like mice and canaries but that's properly ambitious.

Maybe you should have a word with your cat.

...

I'm with the farmer on this one. It may be your beloved pet - but in his eyes it's a pest.

daviesee

TailWindHome wrote:

Do cats attack sheep?

I know they like mice and canaries but that's properly ambitious.

Maybe you should have a word with your cat.

...

I'm with the farmer on this one. It may be your beloved pet - but in his eyes it's a pest.

Depends on if the cat is a lion or not as to whether it is ambitious or not.

team47b

Toxoplasma oocysts (eggs) are produced by cats in their faeces. Infection in sheep in early pregnancy kills the fetus. There is an effective vaccine to prevent toxoplasmosis in sheep. Humans can become infected by eating raw or lightly cooked meat that contains Toxoplasma tissue cysts or following contact with oocysts in cat faeces or by contact with infected sheep and lambs at lambing time, or having anal sex with the farmer, nah only kidding just wanted to see if you were still reading.

Mikey23

Nearly made it through the day ...

Have a mental picture of midsomer slaughter here with vigilante farmers carrying out crazed retribution on innocent moggies to be sorted out by john nettles on a church tower and in the nick of time before the Whiskas ad. I'm not a big fan of owners who dump their animals outside all day while they go off to work and take no responsibility for what they get up ... So I have more than a little sympathy for the farmer.

My inbox is quiet today so any kind of PM rude or not might be nice

Mikey23

@t47b... Gosh, never knew that... I thought they were being blamed for bovine TB as badgers are too smart

team47b

...and causes blindness in young children and can be found in any warm blooded creature, so if you are planning on having a cr@p in the street please remember to take a bag with you and, as you are in the UK, hang it in a farmers tree

First.Aspect

Hence the analogy to dogs and blindness. Only cats are carriers for typically 3 weeks their entire lives, before natural immunity builds up. Even when carriers, it's required for them to shut near where sheep feed. And there is no sheep to sheep transmission. The risk is substantially lower than him losing his sight from contact with his own dogs.

The legalities are pretty clear. It's leverage I'm after - and whether the landlord, complacent or otherwise, has any legal obligations towards the behaviour of a tenant towards others.

There have been no bottom bracket qualifying comments as yet. You are all safe.

Mikey23

Aww, was expecting a spat!

Is there not some way that meaningful communication might be possible? In my experience the more these things escalate the more potential damage they do. You and your family have to live in the community after all

Anyways, not a prob for him as all cats shut in my garden, or so it seems...

First.Aspect

Yes we are doing what we can. Oddly we really like our neighbours and we've found the area quite welcoming. Certainly our direct neighbours are very supportive. Possibly because theyve been on the receiving end once or twice as well. This guy is extremely isolated as far as we can tell. Well known but people don't seem to know him, if you see what I mean.

Mostly it's okay, but you tend to see things differently once grumpy develops into threatening.

Mikey23

Yes, I know the feeling cosI'm getting there myself! Isolation can lead to cantankerousness and extremes in behaviour. Perhaps he needs a nice young Philippino wife like many of the farming widowers have round here...

Applespider

In Scotland, landlords do have some responsibility for their tenants' behaviour. The landlord has to be registered with the local authority and that registration can be removed if the tenants behave poorly (I assume this includes criminally!) which means the landlord can no longer rent any property. Getting to that point however is probably a long drawn out process since councils prefer to go down the arbitration route first.

First.Aspect

Good point. I should know, really, since we rent a small place ourselves. Question is, would it apply to the sort of lease a farmer has? EDIT - NO. DOESN'T APPLY.

Either way it will be a very high bar, but maybe a little leverage to encourage the landlord's agents to avoid the temptation to say that its nothing to do with them.

This landlord is interested in farming, forestry, quarrying, etc. Renting is an inconvenient historical obligation they've inherited and they aren't good at it. But once you get past the staggeringly posh Edinbugh public school accents all the staff seem to have, they aren't being unreasonable just yet.

Colinthecop

First Aspect wrote:

Anyone know whether a landlord has any responsibilities in relation to criminal behaviour by a tenant?

One of our neighbours - not direct - for no good reason threatened to kill our cats the other day. He had to go out of his way to do so, so I think he enjoyed it. He works from home, we don't. They are outdoor cats.

I'm gonna say 'No' in regard to your Landlord. Never heard of a landlord getting done as a result of their tenants actions.

And if he kills yours cats that will be a crime as they are your pets and your property, if they are stray/wild cats then he could shoot them. Saying he is going to kill them is not a crime. The Police may pursue it under Sec38 Criminal Justice and Licensing Act 2010 (Scottish offence) but it will never get past the Fiscal or end up in court - Unless you can wield some sort of Masonic influence over the Crown Office.

I love cats and hate dogs btw. 8)

First.Aspect

I'm not sure the local officers agree with you on the last point. They are certainly keen to have a chat. As to the first - "google". Its highly unlikely but there are some cases re: residential tennancies (not agricultural) wrt to the 2006 Act.

It is not what we are after anyway. Just to be left alone.

Colinthecop

First Aspect wrote:

I'm not sure the local officers agree with you on the last point.

But sometimes it's hard to tell people the truth, much easier to tell them what they want to hear.

Being keen to have a chat is poles apart from treating your neighbour as a suspect for a crime.

First.Aspect

I think we are at crossed purposes.

Bear in mind that ours is the culmination of a series of events, that he has a criminal conviction for a violence related offence and that he has made similar threats historically. There is nothing to charge him with yet, but there are things he could do in relation to which all of this could ultimately become relevant. We are trying to persuade him that this is the point at which it would be best for him to stop.

If we aren't at crossed purposes, what would YOU suggest? A member of the public going about their lawful business is appriached and threatened with an act of violence and animal cruelty by someone with a violent background and to whom anumal cruelty allegations have been previously leveled but not proven.

You have 30 seconds to formulate a non-complacent response. Go.

SteppenHerring

Relevant?