Were the roads safer pre-cycle super highways?

ugo.santalucia

BigMat wrote:

What's the point in limiting car size when there will always be vans, buses, HGVs etc on the road? A more realistic approach would maybe be to have driving tests specific to the size of vehicle you are driving (we already do I suppose, but perhaps we need separate classifications for vans and cars that are basically the size of vans).

That would be a start... and a good one!

ugo.santalucia

Asprilla wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Interesting to hear you target car size. IMO, the culprit is driver attitude rather than car size. The ideal is vigilant and careful drivers. It doesn't matter what they drive if they have those qualities.

It does matter... big car on the A 244.. can't squeeze through with the incoming traffic, driver gets frustrated, after a minute tries his/her luck shaving the Assos jacket of the cyclist with the wing mirror, how many times have we seen it? Most of these scenarios could be avoided simply by having a car which is a foot or so narrower. Legislation should put a limit to how wide a car can be... it's not a HGV FFS, how big does it need to be to be big enough?

Now that kids up to the age of about 11 or 12 are supposed to have car seats and boosters a RR Disco is one of the few cars that you can get three child seats across the back seat. Anyone with more than two kids needs a wide car.

If cars were smaller, child seat manufacturers would engineer smaller seats, they don't need to be oversized for an obese child. If someone has three obese children, then he/she should realise the solution is not a bigger car.

bdave262000

Asprilla wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Interesting to hear you target car size. IMO, the culprit is driver attitude rather than car size. The ideal is vigilant and careful drivers. It doesn't matter what they drive if they have those qualities.

It does matter... big car on the A 244.. can't squeeze through with the incoming traffic, driver gets frustrated, after a minute tries his/her luck shaving the Assos jacket of the cyclist with the wing mirror, how many times have we seen it? Most of these scenarios could be avoided simply by having a car which is a foot or so narrower. Legislation should put a limit to how wide a car can be... it's not a HGV FFS, how big does it need to be to be big enough?

Now that kids up to the age of about 11 or 12 are supposed to have car seats and boosters a RR Disco is one of the few cars that you can get three child seats across the back seat. Anyone with more than two kids needs a wide car.

Vauxhall Zafira??? 7 Seats does not take up much more room than an Astra, but I suppose it doesn't have the same status as a Disco

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rolf F wrote:

Except that the reason the Range Rover rides better than a smaller has absolutely nothing to do with its size. The reason so many cars ride so poorly is down to the stupidly big wheels and stupidly low profile tyres and stupidly stiff suspensions they have, none of which serve any useful real world purpose whatsoever. Most cars made today are vastly oversized. There just isn't any need for it. Except that who would want to be in a crash in a small car with something like a Range Rover? It is the discrepancy in car sizes that makes smaller cars less safe. Your car is very much part of the problem. A maximum weight limit (rather than size limit) would I suspect have a huge benefit to both road safety and the envirornment.

All I heard then was a lot of high pitched squeaking. Did someone say something?

(I like the idea that we should all get into less safe smaller cars though. Because then commercial vehicles will cease to exist, no doubt. Which is good, because they'd never be exempt from the max weight limit of which you speak. And "stupidly big wheels" are, IIRC, a direct result of the EU legislating for better braking ability, which means larger discs and larger wheels. And it is not just large cars that make small cars less safe. Small cars necessarily have less material between you and the impact. And when I have to make multiple journeys in my Smart car/Lotus Elise/electric pile o' crap with the worst panel fit in the world which I could have done with one journey in my luxo-barge/off roader, the environmental point simply evaporates into the atmosphere like so much hot air... ). Still, leftie Commie agitators have never been big fans of personal choice. Especially those they disagree with. Unless they can tax the arse out of the choice in question. Which leads to another question: once you've removed all that lucrative VRD and excise duty on petrol that big car owners contribute to the economy, what are you going to replace it with?

asprilla

bdave262000 wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Interesting to hear you target car size. IMO, the culprit is driver attitude rather than car size. The ideal is vigilant and careful drivers. It doesn't matter what they drive if they have those qualities.

It does matter... big car on the A 244.. can't squeeze through with the incoming traffic, driver gets frustrated, after a minute tries his/her luck shaving the Assos jacket of the cyclist with the wing mirror, how many times have we seen it? Most of these scenarios could be avoided simply by having a car which is a foot or so narrower. Legislation should put a limit to how wide a car can be... it's not a HGV FFS, how big does it need to be to be big enough?

Now that kids up to the age of about 11 or 12 are supposed to have car seats and boosters a RR Disco is one of the few cars that you can get three child seats across the back seat. Anyone with more than two kids needs a wide car.

Vauxhall Zafira??? 7 Seats does not take up much more room than an Astra, but I suppose it doesn't have the same status as a Disco

Can you get three child seats across a Zaffira or does one have to go in the back? I'm not saying the Disco is the only option, just that there aren't many.

Also, manufacturers would only make smaller car seats if it weren't possible to get two side by side.

greg66_tri_v2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If cars were smaller, child seat manufacturers would engineer smaller seats, they don't need to be oversized for an obese child. If someone has three obese children, then he/she should realise the solution is not a bigger car.

Got kids?

I really didn't like having to use child seats for our kids, and couldn't see why they couldn't bounce around the back of the car like what I did when I were a nipper.

However, it's a misconception to think that child seats are the size they are in order to accommodate obese children. They're the size they are due to H&S requirements. Our kids were relatively little and certainly didn't have spare space in their child seats.

bigmat

I've got two car seats in the back of my car and there's plenty of room for a third in the middle I would have thought (have never tried) - certainly there's room for my fat ar*e to sit in the middle. That's a family sized estate - I am Mondeo man - certainly not in the Chelsea tractor league.

rjsterry

We can get child seat (4years) + child seat (2years) + me in the back of our Peugeot 307. Granted, it's not roomy, but perfectly manageable for the few times we've needed it. You couldn't get 3 child seats across the back as it is, but it would certainly be possible to design child seats that would fit 3-abreast. The mani issue is actually how they sit onto the car seat, which is still really designed for two even though supplied with 3 seatbelts.

rolf_f

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Except that the reason the Range Rover rides better than a smaller has absolutely nothing to do with its size. The reason so many cars ride so poorly is down to the stupidly big wheels and stupidly low profile tyres and stupidly stiff suspensions they have, none of which serve any useful real world purpose whatsoever. Most cars made today are vastly oversized. There just isn't any need for it. Except that who would want to be in a crash in a small car with something like a Range Rover? It is the discrepancy in car sizes that makes smaller cars less safe. Your car is very much part of the problem. A maximum weight limit (rather than size limit) would I suspect have a huge benefit to both road safety and the envirornment.

All I heard then was a lot of high pitched squeaking. Did someone say something?

(I like the idea that we should all get into less safe smaller cars though. Because then commercial vehicles will cease to exist, no doubt. Which is good, because they'd never be exempt from the max weight limit of which you speak. And "stupidly big wheels" are, IIRC, a direct result of the EU legislating for better braking ability, which means larger discs and larger wheels. And it is not just large cars that make small cars less safe. Small cars necessarily have less material between you and the impact. And when I have to make multiple journeys in my Smart car/Lotus Elise/electric pile o' crap with the worst panel fit in the world which I could have done with one journey in my luxo-barge/off roader, the environmental point simply evaporates into the atmosphere like so much hot air... ). Still, leftie Commie agitators have never been big fans of personal choice. Especially those they disagree with. Unless they can tax the ars* out of the choice in question. Which leads to another question: once you've removed all that lucrative VRD and excise duty on petrol that big car owners contribute to the economy, what are you going to replace it with?

I see cobblers! (and not just the highlighted bit!) EU legislation is not requiring stupid low profile wheels because you can get cars without stupid low profile wheels and they do stop. Do you seriously think that you need 17 inch rims to stop a car? Of course, were that actually the case, it would simply be another reason to do something about the over bulky nature of modern cars. If your car weighs twice what it should, then certainly it will need bigger brakes. But there is never a justification for the race car setup that afflicts the average salloon car these days - even Top Gear is endlessly complaining about the uncompliant ride quality in current cars.

Of course there will always be lorries. But there are a lot fewer lorries than cars. It is a weak argument to say that controlling the size of family cars is pointless because there are lorries. It's about minimising unneccessary risk. We all need goods to be moved around the country. We don't all need people to have their egos massaged by driving a big 4x4. I am a fan of personal choice though as long as it doesn't adversely affect my personal safety. And I just prefer it when people don't say things like 'I drive a Range Rover because its safer' unless they acknowledge that the only reason it is safer is because it is safer at someone elses expense.

As for the excise duty question - it's like all tax issues. The country needs enough tax revenue to make it work. If you squeeze one source of revenue, of course you need to compensate elsewhere. But there are plenty of places where peoples impact is disporportionately large compared to their contribution.

And please, enough of all the 'commie' stuff. It's childish.

veronese68

Yes, whilst a wheel clearly has to fit around the brakes so there is a minimum size possible a lot of cars have larger wheels than necessary because of vanity and fashion. Range Rover Sports with huge wheels and low profile tyres are utterly ridiculous. It's not a sports car and it never will be, it's made for wannabe premier league footballers and their wives. I have a customer that deals in Land Rover and Range Rover parts and he commented after a snowy spell a couple of years ago how much front end panel work he'd old for them because the owners hadn't worked out that while 4 wheel drive helped them go they still couldn't stop or steer on snow and ice with sports car tyres fitted.
My old Alfa 156 was the Lusso model with 15" alloys and it rode fine. The Veloce spec had 16" or 17" wheels and the ride was terrible in comparison. People "upgrade" their cars with larger diameter wheels with low profile tyres and it destroys the ride and makes them tramline. Also my 15" tall tyres for the Alfa cost less for a set of 4 quality tyres than a single budget tyre for my colleagues 3 series with 19" alloys.

airbag

Reminds me of one of the recent Skoda ads, which was... confusing.

The set up was a load of wheeled vehicles (not cars: buggies, lawnmowers etc) in ridiculously blinged out form, complete with huge wheels, followed by the car being introduced as, I guess, the "nonpretentious" counterpoint.

Problem: they'd shown the vRS with utterly stupid wheels. It looked just as much of a parody as the things that came before it.

Maybe that's just me.

I'm not sure about the EU thing - the only thing I've been aware of is a requirement for a single stop from highway speeds. Small brakes should be able to reach the limit of grip on even a heavy car just fine - the challenge is usually avoiding brake fade. Is there any particular EU test for that?

Of course, if fashion dictates everything have large wheels, it may well dictate brake size as well - a tiny brake in a massive wheel would look ridiculous.

The Rookie

Here I have to admit that my 320D is an Msport on 18" wheels instead of the normal 16" on SE/ES models, having tried out cars on 16" (stock suspension) and 18" (with the Sport suspension) I found the Msport much nicer to driver. Ride quality is just fine!

DonDaddyD

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

daviesee

DonDaddyD wrote:

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

I hope you are talking wheel diameter including tyre's and not rim diameter.
Larger rim's come with lower profile tyre's so the outside diameter is the same.

greg66_tri_v2.0

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

I hope you are talking wheel diameter including tyre's and not rim diameter.
Larger rim's come with lower profile tyre's so the outside diameter is the same.

Busy morning writing signs for greengrocers and newsagents, per chance? :twisted:

daviesee

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

I hope you are talking wheel diameter including tyre's and not rim diameter.
Larger rim's come with lower profile tyre's so the outside diameter is the same.

Busy morning writing signs for greengrocers and newsagents, per chance? :twisted:

:?:

greg66_tri_v2.0

daviesee wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

I hope you are talking wheel diameter including tyre's and not rim diameter.
Larger rim's come with lower profile tyre's so the outside diameter is the same.

Busy morning writing signs for greengrocers and newsagents, per chance? :twisted:

:?:

A gentle leg pull at the greengrocers'/newsagents' apostrophe - misused in a plural.

FFS, do I have to explain everything around here?

daviesee

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

A gentle leg pull at the greengrocers'/newsagents' apostrophe - misused in a plural.

FFS, do I have to explain everything around here?

Yup.
Cos we is all stoopid an' that.

rolf_f

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Smaller wheels on a car accelerate faster.

I hope you are talking wheel diameter including tyre's and not rim diameter.
Larger rim's come with lower profile tyre's so the outside diameter is the same.

Busy morning writing signs for greengrocers and newsagents, per chance? :twisted:

:?:

A gentle leg pull at the greengrocers'/newsagents' apostrophe - misused in a plural.

FFS, do I have to explain everything around here?

Calm down* - you are doing it all properly. Make an overly subtle comment on the internet, upset everybody, explain everything clearly, argument carries on unabated. That's how it is and that's how it should be!

PS - apol's for correctly positioned apolstrophe's.......
* Obviously don't calm down. You are meant to be FFS-ing

asprilla

BigMat wrote:

I've got two car seats in the back of my car and there's plenty of room for a third in the middle I would have thought (have never tried) - certainly there's room for my fat ar*e to sit in the middle. That's a family sized estate - I am Mondeo man - certainly not in the Chelsea tractor league.

I wouldn't want to sit in between two child seats in a 5 series. I have tried it and it's not a comfortable place to be. I've hade three kids in the back; two on boosters and one on a phase 2/3 seat (ages 3, 6 and 8) and they would only manage short trips (1 hr tops) like that.

bigmat

Asprilla wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I've got two car seats in the back of my car and there's plenty of room for a third in the middle I would have thought (have never tried) - certainly there's room for my fat ar*e to sit in the middle. That's a family sized estate - I am Mondeo man - certainly not in the Chelsea tractor league.

I wouldn't want to sit in between two child seats in a 5 series. I have tried it and it's not a comfortable place to be. I've hade three kids in the back; two on boosters and one on a phase 2/3 seat (ages 3, 6 and 8) and they would only manage short trips (1 hr tops) like that.

Those kids just need to learn to suffer. It'll stand them in good stead if they ever take up competitive cycling. Kids these days don't know they're born with their padded booster seats, air-con, in car DVD players etc. Its like flying business class. Day long trips in the back of a baking hot Micra never did me any harm...

veronese68

Too right. I remember a trip to Windsor Safari Park when I was a kid. I think there were 11 of us in an old Opel Kadett* estate in extreme heat. Could well have been the infamous summer of '76. No aircon, windows closed and red hot vinyl seats. At least I didn't have to put up with the sticky plastic seats as I was one of the 4 that were in the boot.


* 2 door estate car a bit smaller than an Astra

spen666

Veronese68 wrote:

Too right. I remember a trip to Windsor Safari Park when I was a kid. I think there were 11 of us in an old Opel Kadett* estate in extreme heat. Could well have been the infamous summer of '76. No aircon, windows closed and red hot vinyl seats. At least I didn't have to put up with the sticky plastic seats as I was one of the 4 that were in the boot.


* 2 door estate car a bit smaller than an Astra

you're parents must have been flash - our car only had BLACK vinyl seats, but they were hot in the sun. I didn't even realise you could get them in red

:twisted: :twisted:

meanredspider

Just hearing that a male cyclist was killed at 5pm today on Mile End Rd on CS2 in collision with a lorry -RIP

Crouching Peeky

Went past at about 5:30. Didn't see a lorry. Bike was in bits though. Tent was still there.

Amazingly saw at least 2 RLJ at the next junction having made our way round the collision site. Absolutely staggering.

Thoughts with family of the poor cyclist

jzed

RIP to the cyclist.

Tent still there at 7pm, bike in pieces and the earth mover lorry 200m further up the road. Looked to be in the outside lane rather than the cycle/bus lane.

fat_tail

RIP ..

I was going to start a thread to highlight this wanton death but ....

Its awful. Cyclists and lorries are not a good combination. How many more before Boris does something about it ?