Caliper brakes on a Genesis Croix de Fer

nath_english

I am looking to convert my Genesis Croix de Fer from mechanical disc brakes to caliper brakes, as part of a complete strip-down/re-build.

The drilled holes in the frame look very narrow, and I am wondering what kind of caliper brake I am going to need.....long drop I assume, but I have been told you can get allen key fixing or nut-fixing brakes.......

Can anyone with more knowledge please enlighten me on what I may need?

Monty Dog

Why? Are your rims designed to work with a rim brake i.e. do they have a machined brake track? I'd suggest you fit some TRP HyRds

ugo.santalucia

Bad idea... you won't find any caliper long enough for the job... then there is the rim issue... why do you want to abandon a superior braking system?

Anonymous

The OP wants to ditch the Avids because they are far from superior!
Someone I know described them as being ok for slowing down but useless for actually stopping :shock:

Why not just put some better disc brakes on? You could even go for hydraulic ;-)

ugo.santalucia

Carbonator wrote:

The OP wants to ditch the Avids because they are far from superior!
Someone I know described them as being more like changing speed rather than stopping.

Why not just put some better disc brakes on? You could even go for hydraulic ;-)

Disc calipers need to be set up properly, if they are not set up correctly, they don't work well. The Avid are excellent and can be improved by using some organic pads to replace the sintered ones

Anonymous

The person works in a bike shop and is going to ditch the Avids.
If it were simply set up or brake pads I assume that would have been done.

Maybe its something to do with using drop bar levers?
I had Avids on my Boardman Hybrid and they were great.

ugo.santalucia

Carbonator wrote:

The person works in a bike shop and is going to ditch the Avids.
If it were simply set up or brake pads I assume that would have been done.

If the person works in a shop, he shouldn't need to ask how to fit calipers to a frame...
I have tried a few mechanical calipers, the BB7 MTB are the best, they are awesome, but a bit difficult to use on a road bike, yet I do use one at the rear. The road ones are a bit less good, but on pair with a good rim brake, with the advantages in winter. Organic pads make a lot of difference

Anonymous

Its not the OP, its someone I know who has the same bike.

The OP did not say why he wants to change. I assumed it was due to poor braking as the person I know has stopped riding the bike because of the issue.

nath_english

I have no need for disc brakes, and want to use the Croix de Fer as a winter training bike.

ugo.santalucia

Carbonator wrote:

Its not the OP, its someone I know who has the same bike.

Well, someone must be right and someone must be wrong... and given I have ridden mechanical disc brakes for 4 years, I am afraid your friend who works in a shop is either expecting too much (they are not the brakes of a Ducati, admittedly) or he has not set them up properly.

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

I have no need for disc brakes, and want to use the Croix de Fer as a winter training bike.

Well, the bad news is, you can't use calipers, the drop is too long. However, there are systems that allow you to fit calipers on the frame/forks by clamping them... Minura/Migura, something Japanese, can't remember. You are still left with non machined rims though...

Anonymous

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Carbonator wrote:

Its not the OP, its someone I know who has the same bike.

Well, someone must be right and someone must be wrong... and given I have ridden mechanical disc brakes for 4 years, I am afraid your friend who works in a shop is either expecting too much (they are not the brakes of a Ducati, admittedly) or he has not set them up properly.

I feel the same way to be honest. I might try to have a go on the bike to check it out.
My cross bike has Shimano mechanical discs and they feel a bit like my road bike. Not sure I would want hydraulic (more powerful brakes) on a road bike anyway (unless they are throttled back a bit).

Apparently the Avids are not as good as Shimano's on a cross bike. If that were the case I can imagine them being a bit pants as the Shimano's only just about cut it compared to my Dura Ace.

ugo.santalucia

Carbonator wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Carbonator wrote:

Its not the OP, its someone I know who has the same bike.

Well, someone must be right and someone must be wrong... and given I have ridden mechanical disc brakes for 4 years, I am afraid your friend who works in a shop is either expecting too much (they are not the brakes of a Ducati, admittedly) or he has not set them up properly.

I feel the same way to be honest. I might try to have a go on the bike to check it out.
My cross bike has Shimano mechanical discs and they feel a bit like my road bike. Not sure I would want hydraulic (more powerful brakes) on a road bike anyway (unless they are throttled back a bit).

I also had the Shimano R505 disc calipers and those were not very good... or maybe I did not set them up correctly.
I have the BB7 MTB at the rear and when I'm on CX tyres on the tarmac I lock the wheel all the time

Anonymous

nath_english wrote:

I have no need for disc brakes, and want to use the Croix de Fer as a winter training bike.

So why the need to change? What are you gaining?

Anonymous

I think hydraulic is the way to go. just for the better modulation.

Hydraulic disc on cross and hydraulic rim on road ;-)

Bluetooth Di2 to 100% get rid of wires would be good too

nath_english

I will of course be using a separate set of wheels, I realise that wheels set up to take disc brakes are not machined

I want my winter bike setup similar to my summer bike, simple as that.

Mechanical disc brakes are only a little better than good caliper breaks, and certainly not needed on the road

I have seen that you can get brake calipers with a 73 mm drop, would this not be enough?




May just need to take it to a shop and ask, though would feel a little cheeky asking a shop to check things for me, simply to then go home and do the work myself

Anonymous

Some wheels are both disc and rim.
Think my Crossrides are both.
Sounds a lot of hassle to me and better to just get a winter road bike.

I thought the advantage of disc was that they work better in the wet/gunge, and do not just grind away at the rims.
Being better able to stop on a wet commute would seem to me that there is a need for them on the road

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

I have seen that you can get brake calipers with a 73 mm drop, would this not be enough?

Suspect not... besides, the longer the drop, the crapper the brake, so you'll end up with a nice downgrade

nath_english

Irrespective of people's opinion on whether discs are better or not, I'm after a bit of advice as to what size callipers I'd need.

Wiggle customer care say a 57mm set would be fine, but I'm not convinced. I've seen Tektro do them up to 73mm.
The shop that built up my other bike said 53mm would probably fit.

Are any of the posters on this thread owners (past, current or present) of a Croix de Fer? As that would be really useful!

thegibdog

Carbonator wrote:

I thought the advantage of disc was that they work better in the wet/gunge, and do not just grind away at the rims.
Being better able to stop on a wet commute would seem to me that there is a need for them on the road

This is what I was thinking. Why switch to brakes that are very likely to give worse stopping performance AND wear away your rims?

Mechanical discs may only be slightly better than standard road brakes but super deep drop calipers will be significantly worse than standard calipers. Especially if they're cheap Tektro calipers.

Re how much drop you need, why not measure it?

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

Irrespective of people's opinion on whether discs are better or not, I'm after a bit of advice as to what size callipers I'd need.

Wiggle customer care say a 57mm set would be fine, but I'm not convinced. I've seen Tektro do them up to 73mm.
The shop that built up my other bike said 53mm would probably fit.

Are any of the posters on this thread owners (past, current or present) of a Croix de Fer? As that would be really useful!

I have owned a Croix de Fer for 4 years, that's why I am talking, I no longer have it. The holes are drilled to fit guards not brakes.
Wiggle customer care don't know the difference between a disc caliper and a rim caliper, I would not take their words for gold.
73 mm might be just enough, as well as it might not. I suspect a 73 mm drop caliper will be cack...

We are just trying to prevent you from doing something pointless and frankly silly... but go ahead if you thing it's the right thing to do.. people do strange things

nath_english

I've measured the front and 53mm will work.

Not convinced at the rear.

marcusjb

Email Genesis.

They are likely to tell you the same thing as others though - the drillings are for guards, not brakes and the potential for a horrible death is increased by utilising those drillings for a purpose other than their intended one.

ugo.santalucia

Kimori, that's the one... they make a brake adapter for frames which are not drilled... problem is... it's 125 quid... EACH!

nath_english

Ooof, £250.

Bit much, that!

Emailed Genesis already but not heard back.

OK, other option is to see if i could use Campag shifters, with Campag cables, with the Shimano disc brakes already on the CdF?

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

Ooof, £250.

Bit much, that!

Emailed Genesis already but not heard back.

OK, other option is to see if i could use Campag shifters, with Campag cables, with the Shimano disc brakes already on the CdF?

Of course you can... I have ran shimergo like that for years... have a look

viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12942781

And here was my CdF

viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12897852&hilit=croix+de+fer

nath_english

Now that looks like an idea!

Lovely looking bike, that.

Will get cracking and report back. :-)

(Gotta get those Campag levers on!!)

nath_english

Will pm you when starting the build, as have a few questions re Campag 10 speed Veloce shifters/cables/chainset on a Shimano wheel set/shimano cassette. (Basically, I assume I still use Campag front and rear mechs?!)

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

Will pm you when starting the build, as have a few questions re Campag 10 speed Veloce shifters/cables/chainset on a Shimano wheel set/shimano cassette. (Basically, I assume I still use Campag front and rear mechs?!)

Yes, I did use Campagnolo mechs and a device called J Tek shiftmate to convert the campagnolo shift pull to fit a Shimano cassette. Otherwise you can use a Shimano spaced/Campagnolo splined cassette from Marchisio or Ambrosio...

nath_english

Does anyone do it the other way around, ie Shimano splined, Campag spaced?

ugo.santalucia

nath_english wrote:

Does anyone do it the other way around, ie Shimano splined, Campag spaced?

Sorry that's what I meant...