What rims and hubs for custom wheels

Action Jackson
Action Jackson Posts: 59
edited October 2013 in Road buying advice
Got about £500 to spend on some road wheels! Fed up with factory built and not being able to get spares. Looking to get a lightweight serviceable set so what would you reccomend as theres just far too much choice!!

Thanks

Comments

  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    That's not alot of info to go on. Weight, type of use, frame clearance, lots of things to consider.

    Perhaps Archetypes, DT Swiss RR440's Velocity A23's on Miche hubs. Perhaps a deeper stiffer rim is wanted perhaps not. The choice is endless. More info is needed or contact a builder or two by phone as if you send that e-mail there is nothing to go on.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Archetypes on DA hubs.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Don't forget the other important part of a wheel - the spokes. Get advice on the very best (ie most suitable for what you intend to use the wheel for) as these have a major impact on how the wheels ride.

    Have to agree with Grill on the choice of rims/hubs - although what you intend to use them for will influence this.
  • racingcondor
    racingcondor Posts: 1,434
    I'm a big fan of DA hubs as well. They may not be really light or stick out in any other way particularly but use them and you'll find that they just work better, for longer than anything else.

    Rims, spokes and spoke count. Depends on the rider and use they're being put to. That's one of the advantages of handbuilts.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Archetype on DA hub is likely to cost a bit more (not much) than £500 well it will if the builder is doing it commerically and want to stay in business. Still it would be an excllent wheelset.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    You can easily get DA hubs for 300. 110 for Archetypes leaves you 90 for spokes, nipples, and building. Easily achievable for a lower spoke count and a few quid more if you're going to 32h or 36h.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    I would say Hope Pro3 hubs, DT Competition spokes and Archetype rims would certainly fit the bill.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    £90 of spokes and labour pull the other one, possible with silver spokes but not with good black spokes. TAlso most shops/builders will not be charging £300 for DA as it leaves little room for profit have you seen the trade price from madison no of course not you are not in the trade.

    If you are buying parts on line to build your self then it can be done for less than £500. If you are asking a reputable builder to do it will cost a bit more. If wheel builder build wheels on a 10% profit margin for parts which is what you are suggesting we would go out of business very quickly.

    Grill try running a wheel shop as you will soon realise the price that has to be charged to keep the lights on.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Ugo built my wheels. I know of quite a few out there that will happily build with customer sourced parts. Just because it doesn't fall inline with your business model, doesn't mean it can't be done. After all, this is a forum for advice on all things bicycle related, which includes getting the best deal. If you can't offer that, then you shouldn't complain. My loyalty is to my wallet, not your shop.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Grill wrote:
    Ugo built my wheels. I know of quite a few out there that will happily build with customer sourced parts. Just because it doesn't fall inline with your business model, doesn't mean it can't be done. After all, this is a forum for advice on all things bicycle related, which includes getting the best deal. If you can't offer that, then you shouldn't complain. My loyalty is to my wallet, not your shop.

    That's a bit harsh... The Cycle Clinic offers among the best deals on wheels you can get around.
    I am not a business, I would like to be a business, I cannot be a business. I live in London, I don't own my own flat, I have a rental agreement that prevents me from using it for any other purpose than residencial. If I owned it and used it as a business, Madison (and other distributors) would still not give me a business account, 'cause they want you to have a dedicated retail space. It is not viable for anyone in London to rent out space for low profit activities, suh as building wheels. And that is the reason why the only businesses which build wheels in London are bike shops. Blame the housing bubble for that... even big high street chains struggle to pay the rent, imagine a man lacing spokes... you should see the lacklustre "retail space" of Chas Roberts in Croydon, who has been in business for two generations
    left the forum March 2023
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    A bit harsh perhaps, but as I'm not only in the same boat currently (I own a business) and managed a shop previously, I know exactly where thecycleclinic is coming from. My experience has taught me that you should sell from your strengths (experience, quality, service, etc.) as opposed to those things you can't influence, such as those looking for the cheapest price. I've spent a silly amount of money at my LBS because of the above factors, but that doesn't mean that I don't also look to save myself money on big ticket items. After all, the more I save on items such as frames and wheels, the more I can spend on services and smaller ticket items that have more margin for the shop.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I build with customer sourced parts all the time Grill. But I will not offer back up on customer supplied parts. If something goes wrong with a part I have supplied it is my duty to sort it out at my expense. If the customer supplies there own hubs and there is a warranty issue they will have to pay for the be build and rebuild plus sending the wheels back. All this has to factored into cost Grill. So go an save money by supplying your own parts to a shop but do not expect that shop to give you the backup if there is a warranty claim.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I understand where you're coming from, but an LBS that won't help with warranty with a current supplier that they use (be it Saddleback, Madison, etc.) just shows poor form and sour grapes. I would never expect an LBS to eat the cost of build/rebuild, but to refuse to be the point of contact is just silly. The reason I love my LBS and spend money with them is because they take of me and my bikes regardless of where I sourced the parts.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Grill wrote:
    I understand where you're coming from, but an LBS that won't help with warranty with a current supplier that they use (be it Saddleback, Madison, etc.) just shows poor form and sour grapes. I would never expect an LBS to eat the cost of build/rebuild, but to refuse to be the point of contact is just silly. The reason I love my LBS and spend money with them is because they take of me and my bikes regardless of where I sourced the parts.

    I dont understand your point here?

    You seem to be saying that you should be able to buy your own parts from wherever you want to save money but have backup ( essentially warranty or at least some sort of warranty support of some sort ) via whoever you pay to assemble them on the basis of them making the effort to maintain a good relationship with you?

    Good luck with that. Maybe your local bike shop are happy to effectively loss lead certain items to retain buisness in the hope they will make better overall profits elsewhere. Its a well known buisness strategy that can sometimes work well ( however in my experience is a massive headache / waste of time for most retailers I know ). Mostly what happens in my experience is customers who bargain really hard etc. are covered by the money paid by customers who dont. Hardly a fair state of affairs if you want to provide value for all.

    I am not sure this would apply here anyway as it is a differrent buisness.

    You should also name your LBS on here. Firstly as you are using them as a comarison and secondly as you claim they are very good and as such should reccomend them.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    You obviously haven't read my previous posts. As I said, I've spent a silly amount of money at my LBS (Certini) based upon their service alone. I don't haggle, in fact I rarely ask the price when I buy most things. I know ahead of time if I can get something cheaper myself, and if there happens to be quite a large delta, then I source myself. They make money off me, and I'm happy to pay, and I source myself as I would never ask them to make a loss. They never judge or question if I source from elsewhere because they know I'll be be in for installation/service/advice/etc. and they won't get cut out of the loop. I also happen to send them a lot of business, which is customary when I'm happy about the service I receive.

    My points above are all about fostering a relationship with a potential customer. Complaining about sourcing from the internet or refusing basic service or help is not the way to go about it. I know this from experience as I have been in the same boat when I ran a shop. Did I complain about losing business based on the above? Absolutely not. Did I have a reputation for outstanding service regardless of the customer? Yes. Did this lead to profit? You betcha. We had no need to advertise as our repeat and referral business was second to none based upon service (we were one of the pricier shops as well). Do I do it in my current business to the same effect? Yup. Selling has never been a product business, it's a people business.

    Anyway, this is getting off topic. Can the OP build the wheelset I suggest for the budget he requested? Yes. Can he spend a few more quid and have a shop do it all thus saving time and receiving a more personal service? Sure. YPYMAYTYC.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • napoleond
    napoleond Posts: 5,992
    for £450 have a look at the Race23 wheels on www.wheelsmith.co.uk
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • djhermer
    djhermer Posts: 328
    NapoleonD wrote:
    for £450 have a look at the Race23 wheels on http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk

    Great wheelset. Had some for about 9 months. Love them and love the service and price Derek provides.

    I was also in discussion with Malcolm a Cycle Clinic yesterday for a new training wheelset using my powermeter. Very helpful, full I knowledge and options and amazingly cheap, yes cheap, set of training wheels using Archetypes, Miche and cx ray. I told Malcolm my budget, the purpose and my riding requirements. He gave options, pros, cons and prices.

    Jobs a goodun. OP - talk to a professional away from this message board adn you'll get what you want.

    Personally I don't know how he (and Derek) do it so cheap. They gotta build a lotta wheels.
  • I build with customer sourced parts all the time Grill. But I will not offer back up on customer supplied parts. If something goes wrong with a part I have supplied it is my duty to sort it out at my expense. If the customer supplies there own hubs and there is a warranty issue they will have to pay for the be build and rebuild plus sending the wheels back. All this has to factored into cost Grill. So go an save money by supplying your own parts to a shop but do not expect that shop to give you the backup if there is a warranty claim.

    I do discriminate. If someone supplies saying a pair of unbranded hubs from Ebay, I tell him straight that any problem with the hubs (other than replacing worn out bearings) will be his problem, but if he supplies parts from reputable manufacturers sourced legally, I have no problems in dismantling and rebuilding a wheel for free if the part turns out to be faulty. To be honest it has happened only once. Most of the times you can diagnose a faulty hub or a dodgy rim before even building it... so far it has been a non issue.
    left the forum March 2023
  • :D:D:D
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited October 2013
    Warranties are not a big issue but while I would never refuse a point of contact my point it the shop will have to chage the costs of dealing with the warranty if the customer supplied the parts where as if they supplied the hub the shop will suck up the costs of dealing with the warranty. No sour grapes it is just common business practice. Ugo is in a different position as this is not his sole living so giving a bit of time away for a rebuild is not an issue. He has a day job and a good one it seems.

    I think yo have mis interpreted my post or maybe I did not write it in enough detail.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Grill wrote:
    You obviously haven't read my previous posts. As I said, I've spent a silly amount of money at my LBS (Certini) based upon their service alone. I don't haggle, in fact I rarely ask the price when I buy most things. I know ahead of time if I can get something cheaper myself, and if there happens to be quite a large delta, then I source myself. They make money off me, and I'm happy to pay, and I source myself as I would never ask them to make a loss. They never judge or question if I source from elsewhere because they know I'll be be in for installation/service/advice/etc. and they won't get cut out of the loop. I also happen to send them a lot of business, which is customary when I'm happy about the service I receive.

    My points above are all about fostering a relationship with a potential customer. Complaining about sourcing from the internet or refusing basic service or help is not the way to go about it. I know this from experience as I have been in the same boat when I ran a shop. Did I complain about losing business based on the above? Absolutely not. Did I have a reputation for outstanding service regardless of the customer? Yes. Did this lead to profit? You betcha. We had no need to advertise as our repeat and referral business was second to none based upon service (we were one of the pricier shops as well). Do I do it in my current business to the same effect? Yup. Selling has never been a product business, it's a people business.

    Anyway, this is getting off topic. Can the OP build the wheelset I suggest for the budget he requested? Yes. Can he spend a few more quid and have a shop do it all thus saving time and receiving a more personal service? Sure. YPYMAYTYC.

    I have read your posts quite well thanks.
    The bit where you said that it was Ugo that actually built your wheel was a particularily interesting point.

    I get that you are making a 'general' point about fostering good relationships etc. but unless you can provide some sort of proof the op can get the wheels in question for the price you claim, then, as it stands, most of this is a mute point to the matter in hand.

    However. Whilst on the subject of fostering good relationships. As someone who knows nothing about handbuilt wheels whatsover that has been reading up in preparation for a first purchase I have read thread after thread recently full to the brim of great advice from Ugo and theCycleclinic. I have also googled pricings of various builds and noticed that theCycleclinic comes up on nearly every search way up in terms of good price. I have also noticed his ebay listings are full of helpful additional information too. Hardly a state of affairs that requires the need for him to be educated on the subject of good customer relationships in my view. ( I am sure he can defend himself but this is partly what annoyed me enough to post.)

    One last thing I am going to point out here before I bail out for fear of become as copable as you for drailling the thread is this.

    You say your responsibility is to your wallet not his shop, then waxing lyrical about how much you spend in your LBS that is priced more than you can get it for elsewhere because they offer good customer service. Then end with the prase ' you pay your money and you take your chances'.( could you not have written it out in full? ).

    Being honest. Its not the most consistant viewpoint I have ever read
  • As the discussion has diverted, I can't resist asking my next question...

    When/if we get rid of the various Madison and Co., who have exclusivity contracts on the main brands and bully small and independent retailers into buying stuff they might not want at high price, will the world be a better place or a worse one? I can't figure out if that means we will have only Planet X and Co. surviving or actually it means that even small independent bike shops will be able to order and stock what they want as opposed to what others impose on them?

    Million dollar question?
    left the forum March 2023
  • redhanded
    redhanded Posts: 139
    As the discussion has diverted, I can't resist asking my next question...

    When/if we get rid of the various Madison and Co., who have exclusivity contracts on the main brands and bully small and independent retailers into buying stuff they might not want at high price, will the world be a better place or a worse one? I can't figure out if that means we will have only Planet X and Co. surviving or actually it means that even small independent bike shops will be able to order and stock what they want as opposed to what others impose on them?

    Million dollar question?

    Are ordering and stocking the same thing however? I'm in discussions with an independent LBS about a new bike build at the moment, and while they only stock certain brands in the shop they say they have accounts with loads of distributors and should be able to order pretty well any product I want, as long as it isn't really obscure. So far, I haven't come up with anything that they say they can't order.
  • redhanded wrote:
    As the discussion has diverted, I can't resist asking my next question...

    When/if we get rid of the various Madison and Co., who have exclusivity contracts on the main brands and bully small and independent retailers into buying stuff they might not want at high price, will the world be a better place or a worse one? I can't figure out if that means we will have only Planet X and Co. surviving or actually it means that even small independent bike shops will be able to order and stock what they want as opposed to what others impose on them?

    Million dollar question?

    Are ordering and stocking the same thing however? I'm in discussions with an independent LBS about a new bike build at the moment, and while they only stock certain brands in the shop they say they have accounts with loads of distributors and should be able to order pretty well any product I want, as long as it isn't really obscure. So far, I haven't come up with anything that they say they can't order.

    This is the way I see the three tier system (manufacturer/distributor/retailer) regardless of the industry.
    It prevents real competition, and promotes unfair competition: for example in many supermarket chains only two BRANDS of cola are allowed on the shelves, if a company wanted to come up against the giants, retailers would not find a channel to get the stuff distributed, because they have to go through wholesalers, who are happy to please the two major brands.
    The same happens in cycling, where virtually everything is Shimano, to the point that others have to adapt and make Shimano-like components. As a shop, you need to have an account with Madison, because they distribute Shimano, but they have a different code of coduct, whether you are a small shop or a big chain. Therefore Wiggle can turn big bucks cutting the RRP while "the cycle clinic" can't because they buy the stuff at a different price. You say it's the law of the market... to a point, because it clashes with the legislation aimed to prevent monopoly. The second link in the three tier system was introduced exactly to avoid that. They also impose a minimum order number on some products, virtually ruling out any small independent business from the brand in question.
    Personally I think we should get rid of the wholesalers... these days anyone can place small orders from the far east and once they sort out a way to factor import fees directly (Ebay has done it), there is no need for lengthy customs waits... and there is no need for Madison. If you remove a link from the chain, the prices go down and everybody benefits from it.
    A distributor is a great thing if it's efficient and fair, but this is not the case for many

    EDIT: my opinions on the system are based on other markets that I know better and on various chats I had with independent bike shop owners
    left the forum March 2023
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I get that you are making a 'general' point about fostering good relationships etc. but unless you can provide some sort of proof the op can get the wheels in question for the price you claim, then, as it stands, most of this is a mute point to the matter in hand.

    Dura Ace 9000 hubs - £314 from Evans
    H Plus Son Archetype - £110 from Bricklane Bikes
    Spokes, nipples, and build will be about £100 for 32h and less for lower spoke builds.
    However. Whilst on the subject of fostering good relationships. As someone who knows nothing about handbuilt wheels whatsover that has been reading up in preparation for a first purchase I have read thread after thread recently full to the brim of great advice from Ugo and theCycleclinic. I have also googled pricings of various builds and noticed that theCycleclinic comes up on nearly every search way up in terms of good price. I have also noticed his ebay listings are full of helpful additional information too. Hardly a state of affairs that requires the need for him to be educated on the subject of good customer relationships in my view. ( I am sure he can defend himself but this is partly what annoyed me enough to post.)

    That's great. I was reacting to how pointless it is to point out things like overhead to a potential customer, as the stark reality is people don't care. Work on the things you can control instead of focusing on the things you can't.
    You say your responsibility is to your wallet not his shop, then waxing lyrical about how much you spend in your LBS that is priced more than you can get it for elsewhere because they offer good customer service. Then end with the prase ' you pay your money and you take your chances'.( could you not have written it out in full? ).

    Being honest. Its not the most consistant viewpoint I have ever read

    You've actually taken several different points and attempted to combine them. Let me explain.

    Saying that my responsibility was to my wallet and not his shop was in fact pointing out the typical consumer mindset. Neither I nor the OP have anything vested in said shop, so why would we pay more? This obviously changes if there is a perceived advantage to buying there, whether it be service, quality of workmanship, proximity, etc.

    I have a lot vested in my LBS. It's staffed by my friends and the service I get is second to none. The former manger (he's now been poached by a shop in Dubai) took the weekend off to be my support/mechanic on the Nat 24hr TT. Am I really going to try and save a couple quid on a jacket or bar tape when I receive service like that? Absolutely not. The fact does remain that they are limited in what they stock and at the mercy of their suppliers (as Ugo pointed out), so there are certain big ticket items that I'd be silly for not sourcing myself (such as my Di2 TT gruppo).

    The final phrase was in regards to choosing a wheelbuild in regard to this thread. You can give your money to anyone, but you're never going to be able to guarantee everything goes smoothly.

    @Ugo- Interesting point to bring up. I've been in that boat. A few years ago Dainese refused to fulfill our order because they said it was too small (it was almost 10,000 euros). The problem is that in the snowsports industry orders are done around March and they didn't tell us until December. Because of this we sent back everything we'd ordered from the distro and switched brands (we picked up POC which ended up being a great move).
    A lot of shops won't deal with certain products just because of the distro or rep. The problem with Madison is they have Shimano, and unfortunately every shop needs Shimano. I can't see the smaller boycotting Madison for this very reason. The most likely thing that could happen is that Shimano decides to go direct. This model doesn't always work (Burton), but it would be difficult for them to make it worse.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • This is how it all started if I remember
    Archetype on DA hub is likely to cost a bit more (not much) than £500 well it will if the builder is doing it commerically and want to stay in business. Still it would be an excllent wheelset.

    Which is exactly what your figures add up to Grill at £524
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Not sure why you're still playing this game, but remember when I posted this:
    Grill wrote:
    You can easily get DA hubs for 300. 110 for Archetypes leaves you 90 for spokes, nipples, and building. Easily achievable for a lower spoke count and a few quid more if you're going to 32h or 36h.

    A pack of 100 DT Swiss Comp or Rev is under 55 quid. Also keep in mind that you can get DA 7900 hubs for under 270, and after a quick look DA 9000 hubs can be had cheaper as well. There also happen to be a few guys around my way that will build for £20.

    So yes, it is achievable, although I doubt the OP would be fussed over a few quid.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    To ugo's question I think without distributors the industry would be harmed as you would only be able to buy kit as a shop if you have you are really big and can order by the pallet load. I want to be able to buy kit buy the pallet load and recently took a very large (for me it is large) cassette order from Miche but that I cannot do that often as I can only afford to hold so much stock as it destroys cash flow.

    Planet X and company do sell kit cheaply but if it makes the LBS struggle to survive is it really of benefit to riders? Yes and no I feel as everyone needs there LBS from time to time. At present there is room for both in the market place but remove the distributor who will handle the warranties who will do the marketing that helps sell the products I am buying. Distributor do more than ship components to shops allot more.

    The manufactuers do not want to deal with shops direct there are too many of use which is why they appoint distributors. Mavic do sell direct to shop but they =have done this by setting up there own distribution arm but then Mavic are big enough to do that. The smaller brands if not picked up by the big online retailers would have a more difficult time. And were would your LBS buy there kit from? Sometimes the price from the distributor is the same as it is from a german site. That mess things up for shops.

    Without distributors smaller shops die. As it happens there may be one official distributor for Shimano (three for campag) but there are several others who also sell Shimano kit (OEM maybe) but they do thus Madision do some good offers on groupsets now. They have a very good one now at the moment.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.