Tapping power meters

frenchfighter
frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
edited October 2013 in Pro race
Didnt know you could do this sort of thing. I wonder if it is possible to do it between the pros. Would be interesting.

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  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Didnt know you could do this sort of thing. I wonder if it is possible to do it between the pros. Would be interesting.

    1374119_10151970933822359_369164525_n.jpg

    I made a speculation on just this during a stage race earlier in the year, but the only response I got was that it wouldn't make any difference. I can imagine the Evil Empire sitting in the car hacking into all the GC contenders.
    Maybe Fenton isn't looking at his own powermeter.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Didnt know you could do this sort of thing. I wonder if it is possible to do it between the pros. Would be interesting.

    1374119_10151970933822359_369164525_n.jpg

    Might explain why Froome is looking at his monitor so much, and why no-one can go with him when he attacks...
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    Snap!
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    "He has no idea how I am doing this?"

    Well if Barry Thompson is your real name, he does now.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    I have a Garmin Edge as I just like to record my rides. It frequently tells me cadence sensor detected when other bikes pass me (frequently) or stop next to me at the lights. I can't imagine why the searching and finding a power meter would be any different.
    I'd often wondered how the pro models distinguish between sensors when there are so many in such close proximity.
    Presumably they use a more sophisticated pairing mechanism with unique codes.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    I guess it's probably like my phone and WiFi. If I'm at home my phone will automatically log on to by broadband because that's its default setting. It can detect other signals but I don't know whether they are coming from and (ignoring passwords) if I want to connect to on of them I have to disconnect from mine first.

    It's probably doable, but a bit hit and miss and hard to do in a pro peloton. Certainly a lot harder than if it's just you and your mate. Of course the pro stuff may have password protection.
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  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    It'd only work if you're riding alongside the bloke - they haven't the range to transmit back to the team cars ?
    And they pair like HRMs pair. You don't pick up someones elses HR when they pass you.

    I doubt you'd get much useful info off it anyway - you can see how well they're going.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    It's strange when I was buying my Garmin, the guy explained there was a process in place to stop you getting crossed signals.

    Also is this really to do with Pro cycling, or is it just frenchie having another dig at Sky?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    sjmclean wrote:
    Also is this really to do with Pro cycling, or is it just frenchie having another dig at Sky?
    He didn't mention Sky. He was just wondering if this could happen in the Pros. It's a legit topic as far as I'm concerned.
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    RichN95 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Also is this really to do with Pro cycling, or is it just frenchie having another dig at Sky?
    He didn't mention Sky. He was just wondering if this could happen in the Pros. It's a legit topic as far as I'm concerned.

    Really? Legit? You can tell it's the off season.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    cougie wrote:
    It'd only work if you're riding alongside the bloke - they haven't the range to transmit back to the team cars ?
    And they pair like HRMs pair. You don't pick up someones elses HR when they pass you.

    I doubt you'd get much useful info off it anyway - you can see how well they're going.

    I thought some of the units were transmitting back to their DS' cars? In which case they might be interested in seeing if someone is blowing.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    I was bored enough to test out part of this theory... I'm using HR, but the same would hold for power (I'm not bored enough to go downstairs). My test is with a couple of Garmins.

    One HR strap can be picked up by two head units at the same time. However, a single head unit can only take a feed from one HR strap at any given time. So, Rider A would have to decide that having Rider B's information is more important than being able to see their own. Or Rider A would have to carry multiple head units, or use a team mate as a data-mule.

    There is of course a pairing process so Rider A would have to ride close to Rider B for a short while whilst configuring. They'd also have to be able to identify Rider B's stream from Rider C / D's - maybe you could do this on a two man break or something.

    Pairing with a Garmin doesn't require a password, neither does SRM (as far as I am aware). I'd be very surprised if the pros had anything other than standard models.

    Another limitation for power data at least would be headunit calibration - something that is normally done at the beginning of the ride (or at least after fitting / adjusting the PM unit).

    So bottom line... yes you could do it, but it would be a PITA to set up and you'd have to sacrifice availability of your own data.

    Now... it would not be beyond the wit of man to create a multi-source headunit. In fact NPE make an ANT+ data collection bridge called the WASP which does this (for those of you familiar with DC Rainmaker's excellent product reviews he uses one of these when testing multiple meters at once in his tests). If this could be sited in the team car with an enhanced receiver then you'd have some very useful telemetry.....

    Edit: Something else worth noting... when you see riders motorpacing in training the moto driver will often have an SRM headunit picking up the rider's data so that they can adjust pace to ensure the target power is being maintained. I'm not aware of data feeds being picked up in the cars.

    Edit2: I just read some more on the WASP... this can forward data on via WiFi so in theory (with a few bits of readily available tech) you could broadcast the data you've collected back to a central base - like the team car.
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  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Do I remember rightly that some of the teams power meters were scrambling during the giro which coincided with attacks from others. Can't for the life of me remember what riders it was, could even be the tour but I remember some one mentioning it!
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  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    I don't think it matters at pro level does it? If we're talking about Sky - if one of their domestiques goes to the front, they go and peg out a number of watts that they know they can sustain for a given period of time - eg 380 Watts for 30 minutes before rolling over and letting the next rider peg out 390 for 27 minutes, before rolling over and so on. If you were another team, you'd be able to work out what Sky did - it'd be another matter entirely to find the riders that could take that information and "break" Sky by tapping out bigger numbers...
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  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    mroli wrote:
    I don't think it matters at pro level does it? If we're talking about Sky - if one of their domestiques goes to the front, they go and peg out a number of watts that they know they can sustain for a given period of time - eg 380 Watts for 30 minutes before rolling over and letting the next rider peg out 390 for 27 minutes, before rolling over and so on. If you were another team, you'd be able to work out what Sky did - it'd be another matter entirely to find the riders that could take that information and "break" Sky by tapping out bigger numbers...

    Exactly. Its ok thinking "Oh he looks in trouble" but you also have to have the legs to attack at that specific time. Most power and heart rate figures are used by teams as training aids and markers as to levels of fitness. Its ok being able to produce given numbers in training, but quite different during a race if you are having a bad day.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Thanks for info Nic.
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  • pomtarr
    pomtarr Posts: 318
    I seem to remember Shane Sutton had Wiggo's data on an SRM attached to his moped whilst pacing him up mountains during altitude training. This was in A Year In Yellow IIRC.
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  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    mike6 wrote:
    mroli wrote:
    I don't think it matters at pro level does it? If we're talking about Sky - if one of their domestiques goes to the front, they go and peg out a number of watts that they know they can sustain for a given period of time - eg 380 Watts for 30 minutes before rolling over and letting the next rider peg out 390 for 27 minutes, before rolling over and so on. If you were another team, you'd be able to work out what Sky did - it'd be another matter entirely to find the riders that could take that information and "break" Sky by tapping out bigger numbers...

    Exactly. Its ok thinking "Oh he looks in trouble" but you also have to have the legs to attack at that specific time. Most power and heart rate figures are used by teams as training aids and markers as to levels of fitness. Its ok being able to produce given numbers in training, but quite different during a race if you are having a bad day.

    That's the beauty of a strong team working together I suppose - it's greater than the sum of its parts.

    However, if you can force the isolation of a leader it would be very useful to know exactly when they are on the ropes (if indeed you can do anything about it). Maybe Costa was picking up Valverde's HR?!

    Or if you look at it from the other perspective - it's a damn sight easier (psychologically) to dig in and stick with someone that little bit longer if you know they are hurting too. Not sure it would have helped Sagan on the Paterberg though.
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  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    I have visions of domestiques going back to the team car to pick up multiple electronic data collection devices...
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Paul 8v wrote:
    Do I remember rightly that some of the teams power meters were scrambling during the giro which coincided with attacks from others. Can't for the life of me remember what riders it was, could even be the tour but I remember some one mentioning it!


    That was satire.

    I think

    It can be hard to tell the difference between the truth, the satire and the genuinely held opinions of head-the-balls.
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  • carl_p
    carl_p Posts: 989
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I have visions of domestiques going back to the team car to pick up multiple electronic data collection devices...

    Thank you Angela Merkel :D
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  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
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  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    Do I remember rightly that some of the teams power meters were scrambling during the giro which coincided with attacks from others. Can't for the life of me remember what riders it was, could even be the tour but I remember some one mentioning it!


    That was satire.

    I think

    It can be hard to tell the difference between the truth, the satire and the genuinely held opinions of head-the-balls.

    I thought it could have been but as you say there are so many conspiracy theories that fly around!
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