What's happened to the Germans?

rockmonkeysc

A year ago when anyone asked for recommendations for a new bike there would be lots of suggestions that you would have to be stupid to buy anything other than a Canyon/Rose/YT. Now there seems to just be the odd recommendation for German bikes. Whats gone wrong with them?
The only consistent thing is that you would be an idiot to buy a Specialized Hardrock.

The Northern Monkey

Generally people already know about them now?

I'd buy german mail order any day, great bikes and great spec.

Stevo_666

Nothing gone wrong.

Maybe a couple of years ago the German brands were just getting established over here and were a bit of a novelty - I reckon people were impressed by the value for money and spec at first. Now people know about them, there's less fuss. Agree with NM, would have no problems with a German mail order - may even get one soon if I see something I fancy in the 2014 line ups

rockmonkeysc

I don't think I would buy a mail order German bike. Partly because I can't try one for size or prod and poke one in a shop and partly because I don't like the linear rear suspension rate that ze Germans seem to like. I may be tempted to buy one and swap the frame for something else though. They are very good value.

The Northern Monkey

Aye the feel may bot be for everyone, but I love mine and won't be getting rid any time soon. In fact, I've never owned a bike as long!
The only standard thing on my bike is the framw and rear shock lol!

You do always have a 30day trial period (with Canyon anyway). So if you didnt like it you can send it back and get your cash back or a different size.

Bur like you said, spec wise and value for money, they're almost impossible to beat.

stubs

They arent quite as cheap as they were, when I got mine the £ to € rate was really good its not so good now but they still are good value. They were so cheap at one point someone on a bike forum (might have been this forum) was buying bikes breaking them and selling the parts for a tidy profit.

97th choice

A lot of the buying posts recently have been sub 1k

lawman

I don't understand why there aren't more british brands like Canyon/Rose/YT popping up. Other than On-One/Planet X, I can't think of any brands in the UK that offer similar kinds of spec for the money, or even remotely similar bikes for that matter!

The UK is huge market and I reckon a direct-sale brand that offered a wide range of bikes in the UK would be a big sucess. Hell if I had the time and money to throw at something I would, no question about it!

stubs

Halfords is about as close as you get to the German firms for buying power. I think the main problem is the British market compared to Germany and the rest of Europe is small scale its only when you go to Europe and get a shock when you see hundreds of bikes. A few years ago we went to the Black Forest on a Classic Motor bike tour and you could hardly get near a cafe for rank after rank of racers, tourers and MTBs. No idea what the German Bicycle market is worth but it has to be getting on for 10 times the value of Britain, we didnt see a bike worth less than €1500.

Kowalski675

Yup. UK market is small fry.

kammybear

Tell someone you spent £1000 on your bike, they think you're mad.

I feel stupid considering a more expensive bike!

Northwind

YT went out of stock of a lot of models so that took away some of the word of mouth/excitement I think.

Genuine WTF how is it done?

https://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbike ... tml?b=3263
http://www.yt-industries.com/shop/en/Bi ... icked-650B

dusk

YT is far more gravity focussed so don't have such appeal to your typical BikeRadar forum member.

I have a YT and a Canyon, if I bought a new bike it would take a lot for me not to buy German

Stevo_666

Kowalski675 wrote:

Yup. UK market is small fry.

http://www.coliped.com/docs/issuu/European%20Bicycle%20Market%20&%20Industry%20Profile%20-%20Edition%202012.pdf
Have a gander at pages 12, 13, 19 & 20.

Production - yes, we make almost nothing
Sales - no, looks like the German market is about 10% bigger in volume and just under twice the size in value.

stubs

Surprised there were 3.5 million bikes sold in Britain in 2011. Where are they all.

Stevo_666

stubs wrote:

Surprised there were 3.5 million bikes sold in Britain in 2011. Where are they all.

Does seem like a lot for an Island with 60-odd million people. I'm guessing it's a combination of bikes for kids (need replacing every few years) and people buying cheap tat that falls apart and needs replacing. And probably to replace the ones that get nicked.

adamfo

Interesting that bike sales per capita are higher in the UK than in France and much higher than Italy.

Also confirms what an important market the UK is for many exporters. For example, in the first 3 months of 2012 Germany exported more goods to the UK than to any other country. For years the UK was the biggest export market for BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Audi after America. Demand from China has now overtaken the UK.

Trawling around the Canyon website I gleaned than Canyon sold 60,000 bikes in 2012. That's assemble, not make. They actually don't make anything. The UK would appear to take between 6 to 8% of that total. It's less in reality, but that is the figure shown on the Canyon production line daily display computer !

There was a factory visit article in one of the MTB mags recently to Orange. A total of 4000 bike p.a was mentioned. I expect most of those were Taiwanese sourced hardtail models ? From what I can make out from the Orange website they don't have many foreign distributors.

Luckily some bike components are still made in the EU. I've just ordered some Campagnolo Zonda wheels. The cheapest dealer... yep in Germany with free shipping too.

stubs

If 30 million bikes have been sold in Britain in the last 10 years then 29 million must have ended up in canals and landfill.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

YT went out of stock of a lot of models so that took away some of the word of mouth/excitement I think.

Genuine WTF how is it done?

https://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbike ... tml?b=3263
http://www.yt-industries.com/shop/en/Bi ... icked-650B

I was oggling that Strive the other night, looks great in the raw finish option. Don't know anything about YT, but the bike in your link looks good.

rockmonkeysc

Nukeproof were great value but it seems that since their bikes have got sich a good reputation (particularly with dh racers) prices are going up now. Give it two more years and they will be around the same price ad Transition.
I was told by a distributor that the uk tax system makes it impossible for uk companies to compete with the Germans. We have too much import duty on stuff from outside the EU but the Germans don't. Meaning they can buy from Shimano, SRAM etc and sell to us cheap. At least thats how I understood it.

The Northern Monkey

stubs wrote:

Surprised there were 3.5 million bikes sold in Britain in 2011. Where are they all.

Nicked and broken for parts.... probably.

adamfo

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Nukeproof were great value but it seems that since their bikes have got sich a good reputation (particularly with dh racers) prices are going up now. Give it two more years and they will be around the same price ad Transition.
I was told by a distributor that the uk tax system makes it impossible for uk companies to compete with the Germans. We have too much import duty on stuff from outside the EU but the Germans don't. Meaning they can buy from Shimano, SRAM etc and sell to us cheap. At least thats how I understood it.

Not true. External market Import rates are similar throughout the EU.

http://www.bike-eu.com/Laws-Regulations ... IK002340W/

A shimano part from Malaysia will be 1.2 % and from Japan 4.7 %

The rates for fully assembled bikes is higher that's why bikes are assembled in the EU. Artificial job creation.

Stevo_666

adamfo wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Nukeproof were great value but it seems that since their bikes have got sich a good reputation (particularly with dh racers) prices are going up now. Give it two more years and they will be around the same price ad Transition.
I was told by a distributor that the uk tax system makes it impossible for uk companies to compete with the Germans. We have too much import duty on stuff from outside the EU but the Germans don't. Meaning they can buy from Shimano, SRAM etc and sell to us cheap. At least thats how I understood it.

Not true. External market Import rates are similar throughout the EU.

+1. That distributor is bullsh!tting or doesn't know what he's on about.

The EU is effectively one single territory for customs duty purposes and rates are uniform for the same kit coming into the EU. It's more likely because they have more buying power.

cooldad

I watched a programme about a family who went to live in Germany for a while and it appears Germans are really weird - seems they are actually expected to work at work instead of posting sh1t on the internet.
Go figure.
But might have something to do with competitiveness.

Northwind

A cynical person might note that since it became more popular to buy things from France and Germany by mail order, there's been less Shimano price hikes in the UK.

adamfo

Northwind wrote:

A cynical person might note that since it became more popular to buy things from France and Germany by mail order, there's been less Shimano price hikes in the UK.

I bet the UK discounters don't buy from Madison the UK Shimano importer. They source from the Worldwide grey market. I bought a Dura Ace crankset from Merlin and it had CHF barcode pricing on the packaging. That's Switzerland.

A bike manufacturer over a certain size can probably get distributor discount rather than the lower trade rate.

rockmonkeysc

cooldad wrote:

I watched a programme about a family who went to live in Germany for a while and it appears Germans are really weird - seems they are actually expected to work at work instead of posting sh1t on the internet.
Go figure.
But might have something to do with competitiveness.

I used to work for a German company. They seem to be on holiday most of the year. All their bank holidays (they have quite a few) are on Thursdays so they shut down for the Friday as well.
They were even allowed to drink beer at work until two years ago.

stubs

cooldad wrote:

I watched a programme about a family who went to live in Germany for a while and it appears Germans are really weird - seems they are actually expected to work at work instead of posting sh1t on the internet.
Go figure.
But might have something to do with competitiveness.

I worked in Germany as a contractor. We started work at 7 had a break at 12 and boxed up at 5 the locals started at 8 had a 11.30 till 12.30 lunch break and home at 4. They were very good steady workers but if you asked them to delay the lunch break, stay behind for a bit or do something they werent certified for they would look at you like you just took a dump in their coffee cup. They all had trade qualifications coming out their ears but an electrician wouldnt pick up a spanner and a welder wouldnt touch a hammer and nail. They would wait till the man with the right qualifications came along to do up the bolt and the man with the right qualifications to bang in a nail.

bails87

They all had trade qualifications coming out their ears but an electrician wouldnt pick up a spanner and a welder wouldnt touch a hammer and nail. They would wait till the man with the right qualifications came along to do up the bolt and the man with the right qualifications to bang in a nail

Might go some way to explaining why German cars have a better reputation than anything made at Longbridge!

rockmonkeysc

bails87 wrote:

They all had trade qualifications coming out their ears but an electrician wouldnt pick up a spanner and a welder wouldnt touch a hammer and nail. They would wait till the man with the right qualifications came along to do up the bolt and the man with the right qualifications to bang in a nail

Might go some way to explaining why German cars have a better reputation than anything made at Longbridge!

I don't know why VW have such a good reputation for reliability. I have had a 2006 Passat tdi and a 2004 Golf tdi. Both had loads of faults with electronic components, cv joints and ancillary parts. Every time I took them in for repairs I was told that it was a common fault.
My current car is a 2009 Mondeo which has not had a single issue in 18 months but Ford aren't particularly known for reliability. It also has a much better quality interior finish.