First post! Buying advice (Unbranded frame!)

JParko

Hi Everyone,

I have been biking for a couple of years now and currently use a Zesty 314 which is great but I fancy the jump up.
Ideally looking for a big jump and go for my dream build although with the top brands like Santa Cruz they are crazy expensive.

I was speaking to a friend of mine who has worked at a bike shop for years and we started discussing these unbranded carbon frames which got me thinking about a custom build through that route, he is willing to supply/fit everything for some money which would take the pain out of it.

So far I have got a written quote which I would like you to look over and see if you think its worth the whole unbranded thing. The frame is from a US company and with two years warranty. The frame seems excellent as it uses the FSR design like Specialized plus has internal cable routing, tapered headset, 142 x 12 rear end. Seems to tick most of the boxes for me plus its 650b which I would prefer over 29er.

Here is what I am working on so far:
130 carbon frame - 27.5"/650b
Forks: Rockshox Pike RCT3
Shock: Rockshox Monarch RCT3 shock
Brakes: X0 Trail
Shifters: X01
Chainset: X01
Derailleur: X01
Cassette: Sram PG1195
Wheels: Reynolds AM Alloy (Possibly carbon)
Seatpost: Rockshox Reverb MMX 125
Bottom bracket: GXP
Saddle: RaceFace Atlas
Stem: RaceFace Atlas
Bars: Raceface Sixc


This is pretty much my dream build and with taxes/delivery etc I think all in it will sit me at £2950, give or take £100.

What do you all think of this, I would say the price is fair considering I essentially hand him the spec list and then collect it on XX date. The weak link to me seems to be the carbon unbranded frame but he has used the company before and the 2 years warranty is putting me at ease a little.

What do you think, go the custom route or buy fully built?

Thanks in advance, I have browsed this forum in the past but never really got in to it, I think I will stick around this time.

russyh

When he says US company does he mean one of the Chinese carbon frames? If so I had a road bike frame which was fine but personally I wouldn't buy a unbranded carbon mtb frame. But that maybe just me.

nicklouse

JParko wrote:

This is pretty much my dream build and with taxes/delivery etc I think all in it will sit me at £2950, give or take £100.

so what are you using for your tax calcs? import tax is 15% for a full bike and the add the VAT on to that total plus any handling charge from the couriers.

JParko

Frame only, parts etc will be supplied brand new from the UK.

My friend is taking care of the delivery etc as he is friendly with the guy there, he will only declare the frame for the price they pay not the RRP. This is slightly less meaning less tax etc.

I am yet work out the exact cost but as said it will be sub £3000.

nicklouse

Ok then you have 4.8% and then the VAT and handling charge.

And customs are not thick. If they look they will change the value if it is undervalued in their eyes.

But TBH it sounds like they are getting it from china.

I bet you could do better elsewhere.

JParko

Yes this was countered in the price. Looked at numerous thread and used the duty calculator website.

More than likely the frames will come from China but if I buy direct there seems to be a longer wait and less warranty with is the most important. The US company must be importing them in but possibly getting quality checks before sending out, this hopefully increasing the warranty.

I have looked at cutting corners a little but the savings are little and don't warrant it in my opinion.

I have a few more days to think yet, I am seriously tempted to take the jump but there is always the little doubt.

Kowalski675

Realistically, how much practical use is the two year warranty, if you're going to have to ship the bike back across the Atlantic to claim on it? Each to their own, but I wouldn't be spending that kind of wedge on a carbon frame of unknown provenance with no UK importer or dealers. If you've got 3 grand to spend then you can take your pick of any number of excellent bikes that come with dealer/importer backup.

97th choice

I would worry about the unbranded frame, how do you know how the bike will ride? You could have a collection of lovely things hanging off a very light yet shoot frame.

JParko

I mentioned to my friend about returning the frame if it gets here and I was not happy, I think he has emailed them but I have not heard anything. Will confirm tomorrow. Possibly 30 days to return would give me chance to get it built up and get a feel for it.

Delivery is not too bad, I have a courier account through work. Based on previous experiences I would guess something this size/weight would be about £100 to send (3/4/5 day service). Then them swapping/sending back could take time.

Its all food for though really so thanks for the input everyone.

If there was a UK dealer offering this build at that price I would snap their hands off and I presume so would lots more people!

cooldad

Hard to say on the info given - what's the cost of the build (parts) excluding the frame?

nicklouse

JParko wrote:

I

If there was a UK dealer offering this build at that price

but it is not a UK dealer that is doing this? as the only thing that is coming from the US is the frame

So it sounds like the whole thing is being done through a shop in the UK.

if this is so then any warrenty is with the shop and if they are doing it at, as you say. cost i see you falling out if anything is wrong.

sounds like they want to use someone to see if it is any good. what you have written just smells or you are not stating the full facts.

yes i used to import and distribute bike stuff. I would be doing some serious looking at what else there is for 3K.

Kowalski675

JParko wrote:

If there was a UK dealer offering this build at that price I would snap their hands off and I presume so would lots more people!

Ok, so it's not carbon (which wouldn't bother me), and it's not strictly a UK dealer (but has a UK agent), but it's a pretty damn impressive spec list and £600 cheaper (and looks gorgeous in the raw finish option):

http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes ... ab-reiter2

BigAl

97th choice wrote:

I would worry about the unbranded frame, how do you know how the bike will ride? You could have a collection of lovely things hanging off a very light yet shoot frame.

What he says ^^^^

The frame is the core of the bike. Get that right first.

Personally, I'd drop the parts spec and buy something known and from the uk. £3k buys a lot of bike, especially if you look at '12 & '13 models on offer.

Or look secondhand for a frame? If you're patient, plenty of good deals to be had

BigAl

How much are you paying for the frame including taxes and delivery?

rockmonkeysc

Not ridden one myself but I know an international level xc racer who rides a unbranded chinese carbon frame as a winter training bike and swears it's great. He has ridden it hard for a while now with no problems.
They are cheap enough to take a chance. If it breaks you have only lost a few hundred squid.

Huckfinn

Kowalski675 wrote:

JParko wrote:

If there was a UK dealer offering this build at that price I would snap their hands off and I presume so would lots more people!

Ok, so it's not carbon (which wouldn't bother me), and it's not strictly a UK dealer (but has a UK agent), but it's a pretty damn impressive spec list and £600 cheaper (and looks gorgeous in the raw finish option):

http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes ... ab-reiter2

+1 for the above. Id recommend having a look at the outlet section as well a few good deals there

russyh

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Not ridden one myself but I know an international level xc racer who rides a unbranded chinese carbon frame as a winter training bike and swears it's great. He has ridden it hard for a while now with no problems.
They are cheap enough to take a chance. If it breaks you have only lost a few hundred squid.

And possibly your collar bone and front teeth...

rockmonkeysc

Russyh wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Not ridden one myself but I know an international level xc racer who rides a unbranded chinese carbon frame as a winter training bike and swears it's great. He has ridden it hard for a while now with no problems.
They are cheap enough to take a chance. If it breaks you have only lost a few hundred squid.

And possibly your collar bone and front teeth...

Its probably less likely to fail than a Lappierre!
I have broken a few frames (all big brands), its never spectacular it just starts feeling loose and really flexy.
The Chinese frames are probably made in the same factory as the well known brands using the same materials.

russyh

Well I had one of the Chinese road bike frames and it was great, looked really well made. But I am just not sure I would want to own one of the mtb versions. Maybe it's just me, but even if the are made in the same mould as other big manufacturers does not mean the same resin and cloth type is used in the layup. Just think its worth thinking about. Not sure it's less likely to fail than a lapierre either. I guess it's relative to the number of bikes sold.

However, I should imagine the big manufacturers that get their frames built in China have some quality control process (you would like to think) if buying outside of the big brand comfort blanket can you be sure that someone is ensuring the correct layup, material and build process is being adhered too? Sure the uk shop selling the bike is accountable, but ultimately I would rather my bike didn't have a catastrophic failure which may or may not put me in hospital with my only security being I could sue a uk bike shop. I dunno it's food for thought.

The Rookie

When you consider how cost competative the Titus frames are from on-one, why take the risk?

rockmonkeysc

I have seen a few broken on one carbon and titus titanium frames. Whay makes you think they will be any better than a cheap Chinese frame? They all come from factories in the far east.

cooldad

A lot easier to get it sorted out locally though.

97th choice

The Rookie wrote:

When you consider how cost competative the Titus frames are from on-one, why take the risk?

This, how do you know an unbranded frame isn't something that failed QC and got sold on?

rockmonkeysc

I would rather deal with China than Yorkshire.

JParko

Wow! Loads of replies since last night.

The Canyon bikes are very good value for money and I have not ruled them out.
The Titus frame is basically what I can buy with out the name for about half the price. I think its the whole custom build things that has got me really wanting to do it.

As some of you said, the Chinese frames may not last as long or even crack but I am still half tempted to see, just out of curiosity. If I got two years and then it cracked after the warranty I would be relatively happy with that. I have seen friends frames fail which where top brands and they have spent £2000 on them!

As said before I am going to weigh up all options this weekend and see what comes back. really tempted to take a punt on it.

I am going to look in to QC as I know you can pay for this service in most countries and I cant see China being any different, possibly get a price for a recognised company to check everything out. I will also have to weigh this up on the final price.

The bike will not be bought through a bike shop, my friend will be doing this as a favour, basically out of hours work to help me rather than getting the lads in the shop working on it through the day and knocking their work time/schedule back

cooldad

It only takes an hour or so to build a bike up from scratch. You don't really need a team working on it for a day.

But you seem have talked yourself into it, so do it.
But it's a cheap Chinese frame routed via the USA, so on the off chance that something does go wrong, just take it to the tip.

97th choice

Or, blame wiggle

Or, buy a boutique aluminium frame and start your build off that way. It will have more cachet and not weigh that much more.

felix.london

Build it yourself and get your mate to help you when you're stuck. Best way to learn how to keep your bike well maintained and running smoothly

Kowalski675

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Russyh wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Not ridden one myself but I know an international level xc racer who rides a unbranded chinese carbon frame as a winter training bike and swears it's great. He has ridden it hard for a while now with no problems.
They are cheap enough to take a chance. If it breaks you have only lost a few hundred squid.

And possibly your collar bone and front teeth...

I have broken a few frames (all big brands), its never spectacular it just starts feeling loose and really flexy.
The Chinese frames are probably made in the same factory as the well known brands using the same materials.

A properly mad carbon frame is unlikely to suffer a spectacular or catastrophic failure, but a badly made one could easily do so (and leave you thinking "hmm, I'd be kicking myself now, if my femur wasn't snapped in two and sticking out of my leg"...).

These frames may indeed be of good quality and/or come from the same factories as branded ones, but the point is that you don't know that - you have no idea what yo're buying. It's a similar situation with aftermarket motorcycle parts - Ebay's full to overflowing with aftermarket parts that look to be a real bargain, but much of it is poorly made crap. There's no end of sellers on there flogging cheap imitation Pazzo brake/clutch lever sets, and some of them may be fine, but many are shite. Even if you're not one of the ones who gets a set that don't fit properly, and don't mind the cheap, easy fade anodising you've no idea what the composition of the ally or quality of casting is like. I've got Titax levers on my StripleR, which are far more expensive, but TUV tested, guaranteed, and I know that they'll fit perfectly, the anodising will last and the brake lever's not going to snap as I'm hooning into a dry stone wall lined corner... Performance Bikes mag fairly recently bought a set of CNC rearsets and carbon fibre exhaust can from a Chinese supplier to see if they were bargains, or simply too good to be true. The rearsets were poorly finished, with bolts made of cheese, and the exhaust fell apart after one day's use...

China has made massive progress towards being a modern industrial superpower, but the fact is that there's still an awful lot of cheap, badly made, counterfeit and downright dangerous shite coming from there. You pays your money and you takes your choice...