Running CX Tyres Tubeless

psterdeacon

This may be interesting/useful to lots of CX riders-

It's a bit of a minefield trying to work out what tyres work converted to tubeless. So here's a work in progress.

We're trying to compile the most comprehensive, alphabetic list of what does and doesn't go tubeless- so any new tyres or experiences with current tyres that don't match what the consensus seems to be are gratefully received and we will amend the list accordingly.

hope this is useful!

Here's the list as it stands:

Tyres that work on Stan’s Tubeless rims. ( Iron Cross/Crests etc)

Bontrager ATX

Clement PDX folding

Clements MXP folding

Clement LAS folding

Hutchinson Bulldog (carbon bead Interestingly Stan’s don’t recommend these Hutchinsons: saying the carbon bead means they might blow off the rim, but most reports seem to suggest they work okay)

Hutchinson Piranha (carbon bead)

Hutchinson Mamba

Hutchinson Toro

IRD CrossFire

Kenda Kommando

Kenda Small Block Eight

Kenda Slant Six

Kenda Straight 6

Maxxis Locust

Michelin Mud2

Michelin Jet

NoTubes Raven

Panaracer CinderCross folding

Panaracer CG CX folding

Panaracer Cross Blaster

Ritchey Excavaders

Specialized The Captain

Schwable CX Pro wire

Schwalbe landcruisers

Schwalbe Racing Ralph 35mm

Vittoria XG Pro

Vittoria XM

Vittoria XS

Vittoria Cross XL Pro



Tyres that don’t work on tubeless rims (blow off / refuse to seat / go on but then burp excessively etc)

Continental Twister Pro

Challenge Open Grifo

Challenge Limus

Duro Ellie Mae

Maxxis Raze

Schwable Rocket Ron.

Specialized Tracer Pro folding

Skinwall tire ANY! EG: original Michelin Mud


Here's a link to the page where the list lives if you want to add anything else or amend anything we've got on there at the moment:

http://www.deballbikes.com/blogs/news/9 ... tyre-lists

FransJacques

NO challenges work? That is very disappointing.

Is that becuase of the pliability of the sidewalls or b/c they're quite thin and not heavily coated with rubber?

The only tyres I'd want to race aggressively on in UK conditions would be the Vittorias and perhaps the Clements.

BTW, there is no Vittoria XS - I think you mean the XN, which looks like a Grifo XS.

Jim C

Is this question not totally dependant on tyre pressure? Speaking from experience of a disastrous tubeless experiment in the Notts and Derby league a couple of seasons ago

psterdeacon

FransJacques wrote:

NO challenges work? That is very disappointing.

Is that becuase of the pliability of the sidewalls or b/c they're quite thin and not heavily coated with rubber?

The only tyres I'd want to race aggressively on in UK conditions would be the Vittorias and perhaps the Clements.

BTW, there is no Vittoria XS - I think you mean the XN, which looks like a Grifo XS.

The Challenge issue is that the bead is big and rounded and not hooked enough it just seems to sort of slide out and not hook in- They went on okay but then with no warning there was a loud BANG and lo it was completely off- just 5 mins before racing! Eeek!

Will amend the Vittoria typo. thanks!

psterdeacon

Jim C wrote:

Is this question not totally dependant on tyre pressure? Speaking from experience of a disastrous tubeless experiment in the Notts and Derby league a couple of seasons ago

be interested to find out what you were running...

Well yes and no. Some tyres just won't hold air so you can't get them on to start with while others work pretty well.
Lowest pressure you can run tubeless depends on rim and tyre and rider weight and conditions: dry and fast which pulls at the tyre or sloppy muddy which doesn't- but broadly as a (vague) rule we've found mid to high 20's is as low as you can go on Iron Cross rims without the burps.

milese

What about the Schwable CX Pro Folding?

I've got some Stans Alpha 340 tubeless ready rims and am tempted to try tubeless, but am put off by potential reliability (and the need to spend another £100 on some tyres and tubeless kit). Unfortunately I dont ride by CX bike enough to be able to sensibly assess and experiment too much.

Are the Schwable CX Pro's generally regarded as a decent CX racing tyre?

FransJacques

You need to give it a go. Use a CO2 canister to pop it into the rim. You can do it but it's not always the easiest to live with week in week out.

Re: challenges. I tried with a Grifo on the front - used a lot of old 26" tubes to build up the rim bed to make the fit tight. What I realized is on a front I needed around 70 psi to make it workable. Any less than that I it just went soft off road. It was OK on road - go figure. Problem was it was a tyre I had used with a tube so it had a lot of talcum powder on it and the beads. This is one the reasons it didn't seat well, Challenges have a slippery bead b/c they're not as rubber coated as say a Vittoria or Schwalbe so didn't grip the rims. I was going to use adhesive on the bead then asked myself why I was bothering, have tubulars already.

I hoped the Challenge would work b/c it has a very supple 300 tpi sidewall, as opposed to a lot of others with 127 or 150 sidewalls. I was hoping for a more supple feel than a tubular even. Slowly realized why tubeless tires are always buily heavier than their tubed brothers...

ugo.santalucia

I don't think they have nailed the tubeless technology yet... the fact that the big players are still skeptical about it means it's not mature... at the moment it is still witchcraft... trial and error... you need a compressor, you need sealant... and if you want to change your tyres... well, best not to even think about it... it's not the way it should be. The day it becomes user friendly it will be the system of choice, no doubt

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I don't think they have nailed the tubeless technology yet... the fact that the big players are still skeptical about it means it's not mature... at the moment it is still witchcraft... trial and error... you need a compressor, you need sealant... and if you want to change your tyres... well, best not to even think about it... it's not the way it should be. The day it becomes user friendly it will be the system of choice, no doubt

I don't think it's quite that bad. I've been using them for a couple of seasons (last season on Excellights, this season on Iron Cross), and the only problem I've had was a sidewall puncture at Herne Hill that probably would have happened regardless of tyre technology. I can mount tyres with a track pump; don't even own a compressor. Regularly run at 20psi in races (have gone down to 15 in training), and I weigh 88kg. Also quite happily go up to 60psi for riding to/from races.

I accept it's a slight performance compromise over tubs, but you can't seriously claim it's more hassle. Sure, you need sealant, but you don't need tub glue, and you don't have to wait 24hrs between fitting your tyres and riding them. You can't always ride them flat, but compared with tubs you're less likely to flat in the first place...

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I don't think they have nailed the tubeless technology yet... the fact that the big players are still skeptical about it means it's not mature... at the moment it is still witchcraft... trial and error... you need a compressor, you need sealant... and if you want to change your tyres... well, best not to even think about it... it's not the way it should be. The day it becomes user friendly it will be the system of choice, no doubt

I don't think it's quite that bad. I've been using them for a couple of seasons (last season on Excellights, this season on Iron Cross), and the only problem I've had was a sidewall puncture at Herne Hill that probably would have happened regardless of tyre technology. I can mount tyres with a track pump; don't even own a compressor. Regularly run at 20psi in races (have gone down to 15 in training), and I weigh 88kg. Also quite happily go up to 60psi for riding to/from races.

I accept it's a slight performance compromise over tubs, but you can't seriously claim it's more hassle. Sure, you need sealant, but you don't need tub glue, and you don't have to wait 24hrs between fitting your tyres and riding them. You can't always ride them flat, but compared with tubs you're less likely to flat in the first place...

Mine was a different remark... most people who would like to ride tubeless are not into racing or cyclocross. I appreciate it can be good for CX races and the likes, but as a technology for the masses is still in its infancy. You need to compare it to clinchers, rather than tubulars and then you appreciate the amount of work involved in getting your wheels ready for the road. If you then want to swap tyres (I do it nearly every weekend) it is just impractical and messy. The advantages are tiny...

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

most people who would like to ride tubeless are not into racing or cyclocross.

Fair enough. This is a cyclocross forum though, so I would imagine most people here would have at least a passing interest...

PuttyKnees

I've pondered going tubeless but the suck and see state of it at the moment and the fact that tubulars are better for a number of reasons keeps me away. I don't really see any significant advantage for racing at the moment.

tgotb

I think the only real benefits over tubs are reduced hassle and cost. As a way to get 90% of the benefit of tubs with 10% of the hassle, tubeless is great, but if i was already set up with tubs I wouldn't bother. As a half way house for people wanting something better than clinchers, though, it's well worth considering.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I think the only real benefits over tubs are reduced hassle and cost. As a way to get 90% of the benefit of tubs with 10% of the hassle, tubeless is great, but if i was already set up with tubs I wouldn't bother. As a half way house for people wanting something better than clinchers, though, it's well worth considering.

But let's say you can only have one set of CX race wheels... would it not be better to have clinchers, so that on the day of the race in the car park you can decide which tyres to fit based on the course conditions, rather than being forced to ride with what you've got? Just guessing here, as I have never raced

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I think the only real benefits over tubs are reduced hassle and cost. As a way to get 90% of the benefit of tubs with 10% of the hassle, tubeless is great, but if i was already set up with tubs I wouldn't bother. As a half way house for people wanting something better than clinchers, though, it's well worth considering.

But let's say you can only have one set of CX race wheels... would it not be better to have clinchers, so that on the day of the race in the car park you can decide which tyres to fit based on the course conditions, rather than being forced to ride with what you've got? Just guessing here, as I have never raced

If you're going to ride clinchers at a low enough pressure to be competitive in most conditions, you're going to need a spare set of wheels in the pits anyway for when you pinch flat. If you're not so worried about being competitive, a good set of all-round tyres at 20psi will be faster than the "perfect" set at 30+psi anyway...

My experience is that changing tubeless tyres in the car park doesn't take significantly longer than clinchers with tubes, and you can reuse most of the sealant. It can be a bit messy, but 90% of the mess comes from the mud, and if you can't handle a bit of mess you shouldn't be doing cyclocross anyway.

PuttyKnees

Being able to change anything on my bike beforehand is a luxury. Sort kids -> pit for kids -> think about warm up -> ride straight to the line and hope that's enough! Adding an extra step in there involving tubeless sounds like a nightmare!

As a cheap alternative to tubular I can see its attraction I guess. Tubs are certainly a hassle.

springtide9

Question... maybe best to ask it in this thread... sorry I know this is slightly off topic

I fortunately or unfortunately assumed (based on this thread) that the Crests would be a reasonable choice for CX tyres.

I see that there are a number of tyres that are recommended for Crests, but can any of these be run with tubes?

After failing to fit a road tyre with a tube to the Crests (but managed to fit them without a tube as a 'trial') - I'm wondering if any of the CX tyres listed in the section of "suitable tyres" can be fitted with tubes?

tgotb

As far as I know they all can. I normally carry a pump and a couple of spare CX inner tubes when I'm out on the CX bike, in case I get a puncture the sealant can't deal with. Thinking is that I'd ditch the sealant, take out the "tubeless" valve and mount them up with an inner tube as normal. I can't see why this wouldn't work, but I've never needed to try it in practice.

psterdeacon

springtide9 wrote:

Question... maybe best to ask it in this thread... sorry I know this is slightly off topic

I fortunately or unfortunately assumed (based on this thread) that the Crests would be a reasonable choice for CX tyres.

I see that there are a number of tyres that are recommended for Crests, but can any of these be run with tubes?

After failing to fit a road tyre with a tube to the Crests (but managed to fit them without a tube as a 'trial') - I'm wondering if any of the CX tyres listed in the section of "suitable tyres" can be fitted with tubes?

Yep- the short answer is they all can- Crests are not as single purpose as the Iron Cross rims, I've run all sorts of tyre on them with tubes: conti 4000s 23s, michelins muds, Challenge Limus, Vittorias. I've got a set of Crests for training. I run them tubeless but when i go for a long ride I always take a tube just in case of the un-fixable tyre tear - swapping the tube in is easy- you just unscrew the valve, get stans fluid all over your hands, breathe out exasperated that you've poured 50p on the ground and put the tube in as you'd normally do if you were running clinchers and tubes.

ugo.santalucia

psterdeacon wrote:

Yep- the short answer is they all can- Crests are not as single purpose as the Iron Cross rims, I've run all sorts of tyre on them with tubes: conti 4000s 23s, michelins muds, Challenge Limus, Vittorias. I've got a set of Crests for training. I run them tubeless but when i go for a long ride I always take a tube just in case of the un-fixable tyre tear - swapping the tube in is easy- you just unscrew the valve, get stans fluid all over your hands, breathe out exasperated that you've poured 50p on the ground and put the tube in as you'd normally do if you were running clinchers and tubes.

No it's not easy... please stop saying that fitting 700c tubed tyres to a Crest rim is easy... it is false and cause people to buy products that don't work for them, wasting time and money... many people, including myself, have failed to fit 700C tyres (any) to a Crest rim, so it can't be easy. And of course we have tried to put the bead inside the channel, out of the channel on this side, on the opposite side with and without soap... so it is not easy... maybe it is POSSIBLE, but surely NOT EASY!

tgotb

Am I still allowed to say I really like the Iron Cross rims? Used them to build up a set of robust disc wheels on decent hubs that weight in a shade over 1400g, for less than £250, and I've had no issue at all mounting tyres :-)

alanf

Running two sets of crest 29ers with one set of Michelin jets One with Mud 2s. The Jets stay up and the muds keep losing air, go figure?

HelmetPig

Crest seems to have a bad reputation with respect to CX tyre installation. Is Iron Cross any different in that sense? I'm considering a DT240s/D-light/Crest set but just wondering if I should continue to look for the Iron Cross instead.

andyp

TGOTB wrote:

Am I still allowed to say I really like the Iron Cross rims? Used them to build up a set of robust disc wheels on decent hubs that weight in a shade over 1400g, for less than £250, and I've had no issue at all mounting tyres :-)

They do seem to be the best option for cross.

Out of interest, what hubs did you use?

tgotb

andyp wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Am I still allowed to say I really like the Iron Cross rims? Used them to build up a set of robust disc wheels on decent hubs that weight in a shade over 1400g, for less than £250, and I've had no issue at all mounting tyres :-)

They do seem to be the best option for cross.

Out of interest, what hubs did you use?

I'm on the Novatec D711/D712. My philosophy was to get the weight down as much as I could (within reason and for a sensible budget) partly because there's so much acceleration in a race, and partly because you really feel the weight of the bike whenever you're carrying it. I've also gone for (very light) KCNC Razor rotors, on the basis that heat buildup shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure how good the seals are on the Novatec hubs, but I'm prepared to rebuild them more frequently if necessary, the bearings aren't expensive. That said, they seem to have been pretty good so far.

I saved a bit more weight by putting thinner spokes (DT Revolution) on the low-tension side of each wheel. This seems to work fine in practice (it was a bit of an experiment) and it actually means all the spokes are under about the same stress, so it might even be better.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure how good the seals are on the Novatec hubs, but I'm prepared to rebuild them more frequently if necessary, the bearings aren't expensive. That said, they seem to have been pretty good so far.

Those are excellent... and you can upgrade the bearings to SKF ones if needed for 11 quid each, if you want them to be on pair with the top of the class.
Having juggled with the idea of getting some Goldtec or Hope, I can safely say these are certainly not inferior.