First MTB - DBR Summit Air or Saracen Mantra?

GazzaKJB

Evening all

I've decided I'd like to get into mountain biking as I've always fancied it, have got Dartmoor on my doorstep and - most importantly - can actually afford to buy myself a bike for the first time in ages.

I've been researching hard for a couple of days as I always do before shelling out a lot of cash and have gone from a £250 budget to a £350 one. I absolutely cannot exceed that... whilst I'm pretty sure this is something I'm going to enjoy and want to do a lot of, I don't feel comfortable enough spending - and can't really afford to spend - more on a bike that could possibly end up just being used for the daily commute instead.

Anyways, these two bikes seem to offer the best in terms of value for money. The Diamondback has a Rockshox fork, which I've read are better than the Suntours I've found on every other bike in this pricerange, excluding the Diamondback Response, which I can only find with a 14" frame (I'm 5 ft 7).

The Saracen has a greater RRP, but I'm not sure what's better about it, other than possibly brand recognition and looks? It also uses Tektro brakes instead of Shimano. I'm next to clueless as you can probably tell, so any advice would be much appreciated. Here are the links to the bikes for specs sake:-

http://www.bikes2udirect.com/B5736.html

http://www.bikes2udirect.com/B5746.html

Cheers!

cooldad

The sticky at the top of the section - both the RR5.3 and the Voodoo Bantu are better for the money - proper damped forks, and the RR is well under budget, the Voodoo only £10 over - worth the extra.
viewtopic.php?f=20005&t=12875967

GazzaKJB

Cheers, I'd had a look at that bike after seeing it recommended on a few threads, but aren't the Mantra forks hydraulically damped too? It doesn't say they're the V3 HLO version but looking on the Suntour site those are the only XCM HLO forks with the 120mm travel. It uses hydraulic disk brakes over the mechanical ones on the Rockrider as well. As a noob I'm putting the brake quality right up there :P

I'd also read that bikes with the same brand-made cassette, derailleur and chainset are usually far more reliable than those which use a mixture (or something along those lines). The Saracen's are all Shimano whilst the Rockrider uses a mixture of Suntour and SRAM by the looks of it.

I'm not one to argue with experienced people over things I know little to nothing about, just trying to make absolutely sure I'm getting the best for my money.

The Voodoo sounds interesting but looks like a foot. Obviously it'll be caked in dirt in no time, but I can't bring myself to buy something I don't find attractive.

The Rookie

HLO=Hydraulic Lock Out, so yes hydraulic damping.

Rockshox dart forks are very similar to the Suntour XC range, Dart2 being the equivalent of the XCM (which can be had damped or undamped), whether or not it is damped or not I don't know, if it is it's a good buy as the rest of the bike is well specced.

cooldad

Buying, or not buying a bike because it is pretty or looks like a foot is a silly reason for buying a worse bike.
And mixing components makes no difference. (As long as they are compatible)

GazzaKJB

cooldad wrote:

Buying, or not buying a bike because it is pretty or looks like a foot is a silly reason for buying a worse bike.
And mixing components makes no difference. (As long as they are compatible)

If you make the same comparison with cars or motorbikes, is it really a silly reason? I won't buy anything I dislike the design of, whether it's better or not. I know I won't be entirely happy with my purchase if I can't enjoy it with my eyes as well

I may pop into Halfords tomorrow to see it in person though

The Rookie wrote:

HLO=Hydraulic Lock Out, so yes hydraulic damping.

Rockshox dart forks are very similar to the Suntour XC range, Dart2 being the equivalent of the XCM (which can be had damped or undamped), whether or not it is damped or not I don't know, if it is it's a good buy as the rest of the bike is well specced.

Cheers, yeah I was thinking the rest of the specs look good, I've come across a few Diamondbacks that seem to be really good value for money but reviews are very scarce. A Bikeradar review of the DB Response highlighted the Dart 2 specifically as a surprising find on a £500 bike, though that was a couple years ago now. I can't find any info on whether it's hydro damped or not as it appears to have been discontinued.

I still can't decide... I definitely prefer the look of the Mantra and the frame's apparently very good and suitable for future upgrades, but the Diamondback could possibly be better value for money if I could find some opinions on whether it's actually any good :?

I haven't written off the Rockrider as the price is attractive but it's lacking some of the stuff that the others have.

cooldad

GazzaKJB wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Buying, or not buying a bike because it is pretty or looks like a foot is a silly reason for buying a worse bike.
And mixing components makes no difference. (As long as they are compatible)

If you make the same comparison with cars or motorbikes, is it really a silly reason? I won't buy anything I dislike the design of, whether it's better or not. I know I won't be entirely happy with my purchase if I can't enjoy it with my eyes as well

I may pop into Halfords tomorrow to see it in person though
.

Not really as you spend most of your time driving well within any car's limits, so most will do the job. With a bike you'll be pushing more, so it's more important how it does things than how it looks.
And whatever you hope, a bike and muddy smelly MTBer isn't exactly a babe magnet.
No matter how pretty, a sh1t ride is a sh1t ride.

97th choice

cooldad wrote:

No matter how pretty, a sh1t ride is a sh1t ride.

This, buy a bike with a shoot fork and it will seriously hold you back. I would compromise on brakes and drivetrain before the fork.

stubs

97th choice wrote:

cooldad wrote:

No matter how pretty, a sh1t ride is a sh1t ride.

This, buy a bike with a shoot fork and it will seriously hold you back. I would compromise on brakes and drivetrain before the fork.

This with brass knobs on. There arent really any shit brakes and drivetrain any more a mate smashes up deraillers regulary so now runs an Alivio mech with Deore shifter and it works just fine but there are some seriously shit forks about.

GazzaKJB

cooldad wrote:

No matter how pretty, a sh1t ride is a sh1t ride.

Understood, but I wouldn't buy a ride that looks good if it's sh1t.

Are you all in agreement with the Voodoo over these two then? Any other decent options out there I might have missed?

Obviously not being knowledgable about these things, a big thing I was looking at was how big the price drop was from rrp. The Mantra being the 2013 model, a £500 bike for £350 was the best deal I found anywhere. It's also almost 2kg lighter than the Bantu.

cooldad

But was it worth £500?
It's a decent bike, and fine at the price. If it was my money I'd pick the Voodoo. The fork would do it for me.

stubs

No one in the history of the 21st Century has ever bought a Saracen or Diamondback for list price. I wouldnt rely on manufacturers weights either they are about as realistic as a Disney movie.

GazzaKJB

cooldad wrote:

But was it worth £500?
It's a decent bike, and fine at the price. If it was my money I'd pick the Voodoo. The fork would do it for me.

Fair point, I'm off to Halfords in a bit to have a look.

I feel like a lighter bike would be beneficial for me as I'm pretty unfit at the moment and live in a town with ridiculously steep hills everywhere.

I guess the other option would be to get the Mantra and change the fork, selling the old one to recoup some of the costs, or replace certain parts of the Voodoo to reduce the weight. It'd be a case of working out which option would be cheaper though... just deciding on a bike to begin with is already proving difficult enough.

97th choice

If you are talking about upgrades before you've bought the bike then it's usually the wrong decision. You may be better served waiting and saving more as components are never as cheap as when they come as part of an overall package.

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about the weight, you'll just get a bit fitter as a result.

GazzaKJB

Fair enough, in theory I could actually spend more but I'd rather not until I'm sure this is something I'm going to continue with regularly. I'll sometimes start a new hobby and my enthusiasm fizzles out. If that were to happen I'd still probably be using the bike for commuting, but I obviously wouldn't be needing all the features I've paid extra for.

I went into Halfords earlier anyway and they had the Bantu in stock, but only had 3 other Voodoos assembled and on display. I saw one with the same design in a matt black and it looked OK, tbh I probably would've bought the Bantu there and then if I could get a look at it assembled. When you reserve online for pick-up an hour later does anyone know if they assemble the bike in that time, or do you have to request that and wait a day or two?

I really appreciate all the advice

cooldad

I doubt it but you could phone them and see.

stubs

Not sure I would want a bike that had been assembled in under an hour. Voodo frames are the same so if you sit on say a medium Voodo (insert name) then all Voodoo mediums will feel the same. I am sure if you ask nicely they will let you look in the box.

stubs

Ring ahead and go in when its quiet and most of the Halfords bikehut lads and lasses are very helpful and will even swap parts around for you. Weekends are not a good time to go in thats when you get the weekend staff who arent sure how many wheels a bike has.

97th choice

^this.

From talking to bike hut staff they hat the fact that they have to build a bike there and then with a customer watching (plus serve all the others) it puts them under huge pressure and that's where you get mistakes and poor set up.

GazzaKJB

Just called, they're assembling it for me to be ready by half 4 and said they can fix anything else to the bike whenever I need them to. Anything I should look out for when I get it home?

The guy I spoke to in there yesterday was pretty useless but the guy the phone seemed to know what he was talking about. Hopefully a 4 hour assembly should be ok and it means I get some time on it tonight

Any advice on what I absolutely need to buy when I pick it up? I'm gonna grab a helmet and lock (they do one for £30 that guarantees the value of your bike if it's stolen) and possibly a shock pump?

stubs

Inner tube, puncture repair kit, lights, multi tool, chain lube and some Crudcatchers should sort you out for virtually everything. Read the FAQs on the workshop forum and when you get home go over the bike with your new multi tool and make sure everything is done up and the gears are indexed properly. Read about setting the sag on the forks with your shock pump, inflate tyres so you can dig your thumb into them they shouldnt be rock hard even on the road and go ride.

Oh and its traditional to put up a couple of photos of your new bike a shiny just out of the box one and a crud covered 1st proper ride one.

rockmonkeysc

Dartmoor is a pretty tough place on bikes and riders. Ignore the bikes looks and make performance your top priority.
Whatever you get within this price range will have a fairly poor fork with no compression damper. I would rather have 80-100mm travel max as it's just going to be diving through its travel.
It's also worth looking at used bikes, something like a Carrera Kraken, Decathlon Rockrider with a higher spec or a Voodoo Hoodoo.

cooldad

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Dartmoor is a pretty tough place on bikes and riders. Ignore the bikes looks and make performance your top priority.
Whatever you get within this price range will have a fairly poor fork with no compression damper. I would rather have 80-100mm travel max as it's just going to be diving through its travel.
It's also worth looking at used bikes, something like a Carrera Kraken, Decathlon Rockrider with a higher spec or a Voodoo Hoodoo.

Errr did you actually read the thread? He bought a Voodoo a few posts back.

GazzaKJB

stubs wrote:

-Snip-
Oh and its traditional to put up a couple of photos of your new bike a shiny just out of the box one and a crud covered 1st proper ride one.

Sweet, I left the crud catchers for now but bought a shock pump for £20, could probably get one cheaper online but thought sod it while I was there. Spent £25 on a lock rated at a 9/10 which should hopefully have me covered? I should have most of that other stuff in the shed.

Pics to come, bike feels really great, brakes are awesome and the paint job's actually really smart. The guy lowered the seat as far as it would go and said I can take it straight back if it needs a trim. Only rode it around the Halfords car park before it started hammering it down with rain but I'll take it out tomorrow regardless of the weather for my 'after' photo

Cheers fellas/(ladies?) for steering me well!

97th choice

Seat height isn't based on being able to touch the floor, it's based on being as efficient as possible when pedalling seated. You'll probably need to raise it.

What size frame did you get?

GazzaKJB

It seems to almost be right at its lowest, I'll see how it goes tomorrow. I got the 18" frame model, I'm almost 5ft 8, it felt fine to me

The Rookie

Eek, so at shorter than average height you bought a medium, personally I think it's almost certain you needed a small (16").

At the bottom of the pedal stroke your leg should be pretty much straight, being able to touch the floor will mean the seat is too low, this is tiring and kills your knees.

97th choice

I was thinking this^^^^

GazzaKJB

I did one of those online bike size calculator things and I'm pretty sure it put me on the brink. Think I may have got confused because the Saracen (or one of the other bikes I was looking at) came in a 17" frame. I should've double checked really. Is it a huge issue if it's a size up?

I'm off for test ride in a mo

97th choice

the voodoo is probably an 18" frame which would IMHO make it a bit big for you.

GazzaKJB

Yeah I asked for the 18", there's almost 2 inches of clearance between my crotch and the frame when standing over it... they say crotch in the manual, I'm assuming they mean that and not urr... junk