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rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 53,348 Lives Here
edited October 2013 in Pro race
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24329252

Might be tantamount to trolling but I'm glad a journalist has actually come out and said it.

I've certainly asked the question before myself.


(keep it clean people.....*ahem*)

Posts

  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,481
    ...sport isn't really about the actual event - that's over quickly, few people participate and only a relatively small number will be there to see it in real life. Instead, Eco wrote, sport is about reporting an event, then discussing the reporting of the event, then discussing the discussion.

    Too right. All hail the internet chatroom.
  • Bo DukeBo Duke Posts: 1,058
    There are a number of views on this.

    1. If we don't regulate doping/cheating in any sport then national squads dedicated to winning at all cost (used to be the East Germans etc.. now it's the Chinese) will not only win everything and deprive clean exceptional athletes from ever winning but they'll also raise the standard and world records to levels that no clean athlete will ever attain.

    2. Doping is extremely harmful for the athletes. The East German shot putt woman who had her hormones changed to such an extent that some 10 years after the fall of the wall she had a sex change. She/he today is deeply unhappy and firmly blames the State for manipulating her chemistry without permission. Check out the number of WWF/WWE wrestlers who have died prematurely etc..

    3. Joe Public has to believe in heroes. Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, Daley Thompson, Bobby Charlton, Barry John were gods because they were normal. 80% of Wiggo's public appeal is he is normal (as screwed up as we are). We don't want human powered Power Rangers, who look different and achieve silly standards, we want to see Mary Decker fall in the Olympic final and cry, we want to see the technical skill of a pole vaulter climbing to unbelievable heights. We do NOT want to see a 14 year old Chinese girl come out of nowhere to knock 3 seconds off the 400m freestyle world record whilst visibly slowing down at the end.

    4. The fact it makes a good story is a by product and in being so, gives global attention to the fact that if you cheat, you might get away with it, but be aware the authorities are doing everything possible to catch you.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,781
    Seems a bit simplistic. Loads of 'stuff' has grown in the last 50 years, you can't just say that because there were drugs in that period they were the cause. Just in sport, look at F1, which had become less of a spectacle, less dangerous, but so much bigger.
    If we condone drugs you basically kill sport in a generation.
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,781
    Seems a bit simplistic. Loads of 'stuff' has grown in the last 50 years, you can't just say that because there were drugs in that period they were the cause. Just in sport, look at F1, which had become less of a spectacle, less dangerous, but so much bigger.
    If we condone drugs you basically kill sport in a generation.
  • Bo Duke wrote:
    If we don't regulate doping/cheating in any sport then national squads dedicated to winning at all cost (used to be the East Germans etc.. now it's the Chinese)

    Don't forget the Americans, if you want a study of a 'Win at all costs culture'. Remember Armstrong / USP / Discovery?

    Bo Duke wrote:
    Doping is extremely harmful for the athletes. The East German shot putt woman who had her hormones changed to such an extent that some 10 years after the fall of the wall she had a sex change.

    No mention of Tammy Thomas, the American female track sprinter?

    attachment.php?attachmentid=17299&stc=1&d=1206736698

    Bo Duke wrote:
    We don't want human powered Power Rangers, who look different and achieve silly standards...

    That is exactly what many people do want to see - Riis powering away up the Hautecam, Froome accelerating away at 130 Rpm on Mount Ventoux as though he were riding a motorbike, that sort of thing...
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    All sports are entertainment. But when you undermine the mind over matter element, you become a mere branch of the entertainment industry, not sport. In this world all sorts of enhancements are necessary to keep the spectacle 'relevant'.

    This ends with 'issues' like the growing evidence of inevitable repeated head trauma leading to early suicides. It's early doors but plenty of diehard NFL fans can no longer watch, unwilling to condone real-life gladiators.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I'm not interested in watching someone like Riis pedalling off into the sunset on a MTF stage. I enjoy watching quality riders having to attack, counter attack and attack again to get the slightest of advantages. we've seen a reasonable amount of this in the last couple of years thanks to a more drug free peleton.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Bo DukeBo Duke Posts: 1,058
    Admit it, you're a secret Tommy Voeckler fan.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • Macaloon wrote:
    All sports are entertainment. But when you undermine the mind over matter element, you become a mere branch of the entertainment industry, not sport. In this world all sorts of enhancements are necessary to keep the spectacle 'relevant'.

    The man has often been portrayed as being crazy, but Matt DeCanio talks a lot of sense here.
    Do you think the sport is cleaner now? At VeloVeritas we still hear worrying tales of ‘micro-dosing’ at the highest levels...

    "Hell no, I don't think the sport is cleaner - I think it is just as bad as ever. I had young American's tell me in 2010 that doping was still happening on their French teams. Nothing has changed. Nothing.

    "The sport is the same. Nothing has changed and it will never change. The benefits are too large and the dopers will always dope and destroy the anti-dopers.

    "It is like fighting against a nation with nuclear weapons and all you have is WW2 bombs. Anti-dopers will have small victories and small careers and the dopers will win it all and take all of the glory."

    What did you think of Horner’s win in the Vuelta?


    "I didn't watch it, and I don't care. It is great that he won at 41 at a ripe old age, but I am not inspired nor do I care. It is meaningless to me and as far as I am concerned I am as inspired by Horner as I am a stink bug that I am about to kill crawling on my wall.

    "If you want to be inspired by it, that is good for you. I say get a life and stop watching cycling because it isn't worth your time. It is like the WWF, and it is just entertainment, just like Steve Johnson CEO of USA Cycling told me. Cycling is just entertainment. Entertainment. That is all it is. It is not real, it is just entertainment. Do you get it?"

    http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2013/10/03 ... unchained/
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 53,348 Lives Here
    It's not so much whether you want doping or not.

    It's more whether, with hindsight, the factor of doping, (and therefore anti-doping, scandals, insinuations etc) has made it more exciting or not?

    Rather like football fans deep down love the fact that referees get stuff wrong and it can be fundamentally unfair - if it was it'd be a fair bit duller. Talking about close decisions, dodgy decisions is big thing for football fans.

    Just a thought.
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    It's not so much whether you want doping or not.

    It's more whether, with hindsight, the factor of doping, (and therefore anti-doping, scandals, insinuations etc) has made it more exciting or not?
    Rather like football fans deep down love the fact that referees get stuff wrong and it can be fundamentally unfair - if it was it'd be a fair bit duller. Talking about close decisions, dodgy decisions is big thing for football fans.

    Just a thought.


    I can't see how doping made racing more exciting. What's exciting about having indestructable runaway winners? The only thing doping brings to the party is the titillation of the scandals
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 53,348 Lives Here
    Wasn't talking about the racing itself, more the sport as a whole.
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Wasn't talking about the racing itself, more the sport as a whole.

    No doubt, you could make a case that drugs have been the catalyst for many dramatic moments. But the ring-masters don't get to call it a sport, the circus act isn't a race, and the performers aren't athletes.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Wasn't talking about the racing itself, more the sport as a whole.


    I see. I understand your point now. Perhaps a bit of a dope overload at the moment making each new revelation a bit meh.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24329252

    Might be tantamount to trolling but I'm glad a journalist has actually come out and said it.
    BBC know nothing about cycling except "Doping" & Olympics.
    They even Fecked up the coverage of the WC.
    You must be hard up to troll there for your kicks.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 11,989
    I think this is a fairly common opinion. In cricket, for example, a lot of people opposed the Decision Review System on the basis that they liked umpiring controversies and wanted them to continue i.e. it was part of the game's entertainment for them. Personally, I don't understand this at all as I watch sport for the sport. Each to their own though.
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think this is a fairly common opinion. In cricket, for example, a lot of people opposed the Decision Review System on the basis that they liked umpiring controversies and wanted them to continue i.e. it was part of the game's entertainment for them. Personally, I don't understand this at all as I watch sport for the sport. Each to their own though.

    Well said. Personally I dont need dodgy decisions to make sport interesting, sport is the drug as far as I am concerned. I get enough off the wall comment on this forum when there has been no controversy in the race. :D
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 53,348 Lives Here
    So I'm guessing none of you read and enjoyed Hamilton's book?
  • I read it. Not sure enjoyment's the word I would use. Eye-opening in its detail, yes. But I have no desire to re-read it, whereas I do re-read books I've enjoyed. Just as I'll watch races over again.
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    It's pretty much impossible to deny that doping adds a layer of intrigue to the sport. Look at how long the various Lance Armstrong threads have gone on for, must be close to the girls in Lycra shorts threads on less reputable parts of the forum...

    What's less easily quantifiable is what doping takes away from the sport. Certainly, I've found my interest in cycling decreasing, or rather my interest in the grand tours, but whether that's because I'm no longer a student, and can't afford to spend as much time following a three week sporting event.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,653
    Sounds like he ripped off my blog...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
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